We Need More Thread Hijacking!

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We Need More Thread Hijacking!

Post by rogue27 »

Seriously, hear me out, I belive there is some merit to what I'm about to write.


I currently post on 3 LEGO-related forums. BrickLink, LUGNET, and Classic-Castle. Of the three, only Classic-Castle's forums have linear threads. LUGNET and BL forums allow threads to branch into sub-threads.



What does that matter? Let's use an example to illustrate:
ForumPoster#1 starts a thread about the color change.
ForumPoster#2 mentions how there was also a color change when they switched from CA to ABS plastic.
ForumPoster#3 asks how you can tell the differences between CA and ABS bricks.
ForumPoster#4 writes his opinion of the color change (relating to the post that started the thread.)
ForumPoster#5 writes a post explaining the differences between CA and ABS bricks (answering ForumPoster#3)

On BrickLink or LUGNET, this would be a perfectly acceptable conversation because the forum threads have branches. In fact, it should be expected that the topics of a conversation will naturally ebb and flow like this because the human brain is always making mental associations between related concepts.

The above conversation is unacceptable on CC, despite the fact that each message relates to a previous message in the thread. When posting on CC, you are expected to scroll back to the original post and check to make sure that what you are going to say directly relates to it. Yes, you can start a new thread if you are going off on a tangent, but I have seen that people are often confused by threads like that.


Most of my forum reading and posting is done while I am at my job. As such, I have plenty of distractions (or work I guess they call it) that frequently interrupts my forum reading. I often forget what exact post started a thread by the time I read something I want to respond to. When I read something interesting, I click reply, type something, and click post. At LUGNET and BL, this is perfectly fine, but here it might be off-topic if I don't double-check with the original post.


Now, I'm sure the admins have all discussed merits and flaws of a linear vs. non-linear thread view before setting this up, so I'm not trying to convince them to change it. I'm just asking the admins to remember that the type of forum used on this site contributes to so-called thread hijacking due to it's linear thread view which cannot accurately capture human thought patterns, and maybe they need to be a bit less aggressive in thread splitting and locking. A conversation will get back on topic if there is anything left to say on the original topic, and a little tangent off of the main topic isn't really that far off topic. None of the thread hijacking here is malicious, it's just the nature of the beast.
Last edited by rogue27 on Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Formendacil »

I personally like it as is, and I would really prefer not to have it changed. For one thing, it is a lot simpler without branches. For another, the splitting or locking of threads does a lot to keep things on Lego and/or Castle. It also makes it a lot easier to search for a specific thing in a thread.

Just my opinion.
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Post by rogue27 »

Formendacil wrote:I personally like it as is, and I would really prefer not to have it changed. For one thing, it is a lot simpler without branches.
*ahem* As I said:
rogue27 wrote:I'm not trying to convince them to change it.


This is more of a "think about the big picture and gather insight" sort of post. That, and I think excessive thread splitting makes things more confusing here.

*edit*

To clarify further, I am not saying that I necessarily like the system on BL or LUGNET better than this, I am just pointing out that the system this site uses makes "unacceptable behavior" out of posting habits that are perfectly acceptable (and even promoted) on other styles of forums. Any thread hijacking that happens here is partially the fault of the forum. Also, I am saying that I think the admins / mods might be clamping down too tightly on hijacking. There are a lot of things that can be said that are related to another post, on a tangent, that just don't have enough content to justify a new thread, IMO. I guess those things are not meant to be spoken.
Last edited by rogue27 on Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by architect »

There are advantages and disadvantages to both types of systems. Our system can get off topic due to the way it is set up. Lugnet/Bricklink threads will always be off topic due to how they branch apart. This is equally confusing to people who are not used to using this type of thread.

We need individual posts about single topics in the current CC setup. Different forum options were discussed by the admins prior to this site going public and we decided on the type of forum we have now.

The Classic-Castle.com forum was intended to have on topic posts. This is why we do not have an off topic post area. When members choose to get off topic and not start new threads, these threads will be split. Obviously this is up to the discretion of the Admin or Mod. Certain areas of the forums may be more or less watched for being off topic. For example, I watch Sets pretty carefully and split your recent ABS sword topic from the Black Falcon errors topic. It would have been better for you to post two separate posts on each topic under our current system.

I am sure the other admins will have comments to post and we will discuss this further. Many CC.com members have told me that they prefer this type of posting system over the way lugnet is set up. But I imagine a lot also think the way you do.

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Post by Lord_Of_The_LEGO »

architect wrote:Many CC.com members have told me that they prefer this type of posting system over the way lugnet is set up.
One of the many reasons I prefer CC over LUGNET is this type of forum setup. LUGNET's setup is confusing, and many hotbutton issues result in thread with 200+ replies that are wildly offtopic from the orginal thread. I also think the admins at LUGNET net (if there are even any) are very, very lax. One time someone verbally abused someone else using variations of the F-word over twenty times, an action that would result in an instant banment here. At LUGNET, that abuser is STILL posting and abusing.

Besides, the CCRP wouldn't function properly in a LUGNET-style forum. :wink:

Of course I am biased toward CC.com because I am an Admin here, but I want the forum to stay as it is.
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Post by Bricksidge »

Lord_Of_The_LEGO wrote:
architect wrote:Many CC.com members have told me that they prefer this type of posting system over the way lugnet is set up.
One of the many reasons I prefer CC over LUGNET is this type of forum setup. LUGNET's setup is confusing, and many hotbutton issues result in thread with 200+ replies that are wildly offtopic from the orginal thread. I also think the admins at LUGNET net (if there are even any) are very, very lax. One time someone verbally abused someone else using variations of the F-word over twenty times, an action that would result in an instant banment here. At LUGNET, that abuser is STILL posting and abusing.

Besides, the CCRP wouldn't function properly in a LUGNET-style forum. :wink:

Of course I am biased toward CC.com because I am an Admin here, but I want the forum to stay as it is.
However, that just points out a difference of opinion on how a site should be run.

There are many reasons to have as little censorship as possible, just as there are many reasons to have a more stringent system like C-C's.

Also, threads that do evolve are much easier to handle in a Lugnet-like system than in a CC system. Not bashing the CC system here, it has loads of great features that Lugnet doesn't.

It's just 2 different approaches, one isn't "better" than the other.
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Post by Jojo »

Hey Admins!


Rocco did not intend in his original post to suggest a change of the forum style. So please stay on topic with your replies!

No, seriously. As far as I understand Rogue's post correctly he just noted that not every time when a thread slides away from the original post the whole thread is off topic. Not off topic in respect of "LEGO", not off topic in respect of "LEGO Castle" and not even necessarily off topic in respect of the original post in the thread. When, for example, a review of a MOC leads to comparison to an official LEGO Castle set that doesn't mean the thread has to be split. When a thread about a real castle that's for sale leads to counting the pocket contents, now, then that's fun. But it's not off topic as in the connotation of "sale" also "money" is contained. So why would that be off topic?

Also, if a thread is locked because it went off topic that means there is no chance for anybody to comment on the original post in an on topic manner, either. Bad luck? Commenting on that topic in a new thread is expressively not encouraged since we are obliged to not open too many threads about the same topic.

Anyway, sometimes I wished I would see less activity by the moderators and admins....


Bye
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Post by rogue27 »

Jojo wrote:Rocco did not intend in his original post to suggest a change of the forum style. So please stay on topic with your replies!
You've succeeded in understanding my post where all of these native English speakers have failed.

I agree with everything you wrote. Those are the types of things that inspired me to start this thread.
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Post by TheOrk »

I think I says it best when I says dont tamper with a good thing.
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Post by LEGOFREAK »

I am seriously tempted to post something so completely off topic here... just to see what would happen. I mean its a thread pleading for thread jacking. so if i post off topic is it a good thing? or a bad thing? or is anything off topic in a thread jacking thread?
If I post for instance that I like pie (just to use the orcs tag line) is that off topic? or is that following the original post/plead for more thread jacking...

I am going to go lay down with a cold washrag over my eyes...


i do like pie....



:D
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Post by Bruce N H »

Hey all,

Pie is good, isn't it. :wink: Actually, Rogue, I think your post somewhat argues for more agressive thread splitting. I'm all for natural flows in conversation, and tree-structure forums (e.g. Lugnet) fit this well. In a linear structure forum such as this it gets really confusing when poster 6 is responding to something poster 3 said that leads off on a tangent, but poster 7 is really responding to the points that posters 1,2,4, and 5 were discussing. I don't think we've been too agressive in splitting threads, though (I've done it once, with my own reply), but I think we all know that over-moderation is something to watch out for.

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Post by Glencaer »

rogue27 wrote:Rocco did not intend in his original post to suggest a change of the forum style. So please stay on topic with your replies!
Jojo wrote: You've succeeded in understanding my post where all of these native English speakers have failed.

I agree with everything you wrote. Those are the types of things that inspired me to start this thread.
Hmm.. I see why you say this - but I read the original post, and the message "you guys should change" is certainly implied, if it is not explicitly stated.

As I understand it (Troy may want to chime in) - we chose this system because the price was right - free. I like the system we have because so many users have commented on how they like it, it works for them. Classic-Castle.com's main purpose is to serve its Users. I feel that moderation (locking posts, splitting topics, etc) serves the greater good, even if it inconvienences a few individual Users.

I'm not familiar with BL's system, but Lugnet was created by Todd Lehman from scratch. He is a web-guru, so he can do this. There is an explicitly stated no censorship policy, and we (me being a Lugnet Admin, too) have worked very hard to have no censorship of any kind. Even the implementation of the Force-FUT (where an Admin can change where a reply to a topic goes) was discussed heavily to ensure no censorship was implied by that action.

Having said all that, there is a difference between Natural Ebb and Flow (ie, your example of color change, etc) of a conversation and thread-jacking. Thread jacking is the purposeful intent to change the topic of a thread - it is rude here on CC, and it is rude on Lugnet - it is rude anywhere.
None of the thread hijacking here is malicious, it's just the nature of the beast.
Some of it is - but I'm not in the habit of singling out anyone, so I won't provide any specific examples - but I have seen people recklessly thread-jack.

Personally, I believe in Ebb-and-Flow to a certain extent, but when a topic who's title is "My new MOC: Dragon Fortress" evolves into being about why the Dragon Master line is bad... Imagine you are a newbie coming into CC for the first time, you see that thread and you want to reply. Your comment will be totally non sequitor, because the discussion at hand is about the Dragon Master sets. Furthermore, the thread will now be off-topic for the "MOCs" forum, and on-topic for "Castle Sets" forum. The linear system limits our options in this place. Our point of view is that if talking about how bad DM is important, then a new thread in "Castle Sets" is appropriate - but the original thread should remain about the MOC in question - out of respect to the MOC builder, out of respect to people new to the conversation.

My hope is that our moderators and admins won't be locking threads that are like your example (where the differences of CA vs. ABS actually helps clarify/expand the original topic - and where a non-sequitor responce would fit). But we have to work within the limitations of our system, and do the best job we can. I firmly believe that each of our admins and mods have only the best for CC.com in mind when they do their jobs.

However, I also welcome this discussion of CC"s policies and how we enact those policies.

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Post by doctorsparkles »

Jojo wrote:Anyway, sometimes I wished I would see less activity by the moderators and admins....
Less activity? Maybe... one thing that I would like to see is warnings by admins and mods before a thread gets locked. I think if members were warned that a topic was too far off topic and was about to get locked, many would get back on topic. If someone failed to do so, then the thread should be locked and the offender reprimanded via PM. I think that this could help keep good topics open and being discussed for a longer time.
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Post by LEGOFREAK »

doctorsparkles wrote: one thing that I would like to see is warnings by admins and mods before a thread gets locked. I think if members were warned that a topic was too far off topic and was about to get locked, many would get back on topic.
Good point Doc. I think this is a good idea.
might keep down the number of threads locked.
:)
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Post by rogue27 »

doctorsparkles wrote:
Jojo wrote:Anyway, sometimes I wished I would see less activity by the moderators and admins....
Less activity? Maybe... one thing that I would like to see is warnings by admins and mods before a thread gets locked. I think if members were warned that a topic was too far off topic and was about to get locked, many would get back on topic. If someone failed to do so, then the thread should be locked and the offender reprimanded via PM. I think that this could help keep good topics open and being discussed for a longer time.
That sounds like an ideal solution. That way threads will have a chance to get back on track before being locked, and people will know when they are starting to stray from the topic.


************************************************

Also, for those who didn't get it (*cough* LEGOFREAK *sneeze*), I don't actually want there to be more "real" thread hijacking. However, I do believe the definition of "thread hijacking" has broadened to include too many things on these forums, and I felt that some of the things that were being labeled as "thread hijacking" should be allowed.

The purpose of this thread was to find some way to improve the situation (without changing the forum), and I believe Dr. Sparkles did it. Good job. Now it's in the hands of the admins.
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