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Try this, you may like it:

iMaGiNaTiOn

Y'all had 'em when you wuz kidz wunce.

I dont think it is an issue of not using our imaginations. In fact, I am not sure that your statement applies to what was being discussed. I think the discussion was about the Crown Knight themselves, the reason there was only one human faction, and the need for another human faction. In lieu of that, I think the discussion was fine.

As for imagination, yeah I had one when I was a kid and still do. It is hard to think that Lego has one human faction for a story line related reason rather than a more practical one. As far was how it works out in "play time" well, I leave that for my daighter to decide... if she even cares. I always just treat them as another human faction which is interelated to all of the factions I have from my childhood (they all live and fight on the same continent so to speak).

DerBum wrote:Crownies are great but I think its time to move beyond them and introduce a new more barbaric (note: this doesnt mean evil, just more like the Franks or Visi/Ostro Goths, since the Viking thing has already been done) faction.

I respectfully disagree. I don't really see the need for another overtly "evil" faction. One thing I miss from the classic castle lines was the ambiguity between "good" and "evil". To me, an evil human faction simply seems like another attempt to cover all of the touched upon by Tolkien. I don't want another set of Bull Knights or Scorpion soldiers where the characters are defined by eyepatches and frowns. Why not simply fade out our old heroes (the Crownies) and introduce some new factions? Does a new human faction really need to be depicted as "evil"?

It's one aspect of the Pirate line I really appreciate. With the Pirates you have two clearly defined factions, however there isn't the same obsession over creating overtly good or evil characters. I'd love to see that ambiguity return to the castle line. The forestmen and wolfpack were great in this respect. While both factions were depicted as being opposed to the more established factions of the time; neither group was designed in a way that one would say they were overtly evil or bad. With KKI this all changed. Cedric's Bulls were clearly painted to be villians. If we get another human faction in the future, I hope that they aren't the black and white villians that recent factions have been.

I respectfully disagree. I don't really see the need for another overtly "evil" faction. One thing I miss from the classic castle lines was the ambiguity between "good" and "evil". To me, an evil human faction simply seems like another attempt to cover all of the touched upon by Tolkien. I don't want another set of Bull Knights or Scorpion soldiers where the characters are defined by eyepatches and frowns. Why not simply fade out our old heroes (the Crownies) and introduce some new factions? Does a new human faction really need to be depicted as "evil"?

Actually I agree with you. When I said that I would prefer a more "barbaric" faction, I was refering to the comon nomenclature for tribes like the Goths, Geats, Teutons, Vikings, etc... the civilized world called them Barbarians. I dont want to see a defined evil faction at all. Unless I missed something studying history I dont think any of the tribes I have mentioned were "evil". They would provide a wide range of figure type and I think would be just as interesting to a kid as the skellies or trolls, but would not have to be evil.

DerBum wrote:Actually I agree with you. When I said that I would prefer a more "barbaric" faction, I was refering to the comon nomenclature for tribes like the Goths, Geats, Teutons, Vikings, etc... the civilized world called them Barbarians. I dont want to see a defined evil faction at all. Unless I missed something studying history I dont think any of the tribes I have mentioned were "evil". They would provide a wide range of figure type and I think would be just as interesting to a kid as the skellies or trolls, but would not have to be evil.

I'm very curious as to how LEGO could introduce a barbaric tribe into the Castle faction without making them stereotypically evil. The Vikings line avoided a second human faction to downplay the savagery often associated with nomadic tribes. How would such a barbarian faction be introduced? Would you simply drop other human factions, or would you have them in direct opposition to the existing factions? The very term barbarian seems to hold a significantly negative connotation. I just don't see how you could introduce a barbarian theme into the existing line without making them "evil".

I wouldn't mind a separate theme in the future that focused on between 200-1000 AD, but I'm not really sold on the idea of barbarians being introduced into the existing line because I can't see them being depicted as anything but an evil stereotype.

(I suppose that we're getting a bit too far off topic though).

Blueandwhite wrote:(I suppose that we're getting a bit too far off topic though).

This discussion is interesting but not on the main thread topic. I am splitting it and moving the new thread to Dear LEGO.

Ben
CC Sets Admin

Blueandwhite wrote:I'm not really sold on the idea of barbarians being introduced into the existing line because I can't see them being depicted as anything but an evil stereotype.

I dunno-- I can imagine Conan the Barbarian, or a Barbarian class in many RPG's. I can conjure up a picture of a tribe of honorable barbarians that could present a non-evil image.

I doubt we'll see too much ambiguity, though. LEGO has clearly shown since the late 90's that they're interested in depicting conflict in the castle lines, with clearly distinct "good guys" and "bad guys". Probably because that's what children respond best to.

DaveE

I'm very curious as to how LEGO could introduce a barbaric tribe into the Castle faction without making them stereotypically evil. The Vikings line avoided a second human faction to downplay the savagery often associated with nomadic tribes.

I could see somehting like these guys for Franks (I apologize for using links to someone else's material, but I thought they were pretty representative of what I was thinking).
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cwG7hLXtq14/S ... Franks.JPG
Maybe something like this guy:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyc ... rrior2.JPG

Something like this guy for an Ostrogoth:
http://www.roman-artifacts.com/Images/T ... arrior.jpg

Any number of the "Barbarian" tribes could use Viking torsos and still look pretty good, a few new helmets (this one is already pretty close: http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=30171 and a larger round shield (or even the current Targe with some different decorations) and you would have some cool minifigs. A meade hall would be an easy main set to make, the bad guys could be berserkers if they had to have some. Anyway, I think they would mesh nicely with the current Castle line, kids really wouldnt identify any real differences and since we are currently in a fantasy line, the time period difference wouldnt be important... Just some thoughts.

Blueandwhite wrote:I respectfully disagree. I don't really see the need for another overtly "evil" faction. One thing I miss from the classic castle lines was the ambiguity between "good" and "evil". To me, an evil human faction simply seems like another attempt to cover all of the touched upon by Tolkien. I don't want another set of Bull Knights or Scorpion soldiers where the characters are defined by eyepatches and frowns. Why not simply fade out our old heroes (the Crownies) and introduce some new factions? Does a new human faction really need to be depicted as "evil"?

It's one aspect of the Pirate line I really appreciate. With the Pirates you have two clearly defined factions, however there isn't the same obsession over creating overtly good or evil characters. I'd love to see that ambiguity return to the castle line. The forestmen and wolfpack were great in this respect. While both factions were depicted as being opposed to the more established factions of the time; neither group was designed in a way that one would say they were overtly evil or bad. With KKI this all changed. Cedric's Bulls were clearly painted to be villians. If we get another human faction in the future, I hope that they aren't the black and white villians that recent factions have been.

It's almost as if you took the words right out my mouth.

Dan

I'm totally dissed by these "Chronicles Of Narnia" people. At first, I liked the Tolkien-Style skeletons and orcs, but I didn't realize how far they'd go... I mean, is it necessary to make a distinct boundaries between factions? My idol set system was Forest Men of which I have obtained few. I HATE RETIREMENT... But really, what is with the little midgetie bad guys?

I'm totally dissed by these "Chronicles Of Narnia" people. At first, I liked the Tolkien-Style skeletons and orcs, but I didn't realize how far they'd go... I mean, is it necessary to make a distinct boundaries between factions? My idol set system was Forest Men of which I have obtained few. I HATE RETIREMENT... But really, what is with the little midgetie bad guys?

Off topic for a second here:
I'm popping into this thread for a moment to say:
Laird you confused me to death! You have Ben's sigfig and well...I was reading your words and I was like: "This is NOT Ben." Thanks for giving me an early Monday morning wake up call.

Resume topic:
Reality is whether or not there are people as evil factions, I build one for myself. There are people who like the fantasy line and there are people who don't. I happen to be one who will use those orcs, skellies and dwarves for details. So I'm totally okay with them existing. But yes, I like having an evil faction. But I"m capable of building my own so I don't ask for one.

Now on the topic of retirement:
Sometimes a mold breaks or wears out, hence retirement. Sometimes a line has run its course, hence retirement. Sometimes you just really get sick of seeing the same guys, once again retirement. Retirement is a GOOD thing..it means when I decide to sell off my Batman figs that I haul in money hand over fist.

I'm mixed on this idea. I see both sides, and it really doesn't matter. If you can't use your imagination to distinguish the difference between what you want as "good and evil" between two factions, then it's your loss. If you can't take a faction that seems "good or evil" and make them neither, then it's your loss. It makes it nicer when you don't have to customize everything, but give me something to work with a little. Good color schemes do a lot to keeping things cool. Just give me something cool to work with, fantasy and non-fantasy. Give me a dark red and gold colored faction to battle with a black and yellow faction,.....or green and white,.....or whatever cool combo that hasn't been used recently. Of course I want fantasy stuff to continue, but if you really don't want to go that route at least make some items available through PAB like the killer croc heads and torsos. I don't care, nor do I want to hear about the financial aspects of it,.....I'm the consumer, not the share holder.

QB22,

That is my feeling as well. They are what you make them..... if you cannot do that then....... just repeat such is life a few times.

Heir

Quickblade22 wrote:If you can't take a faction that seems "good or evil" and make them neither, then it's your loss.

Very true. I've made a couple peaceful/civilian troll MOCs:

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=347362

Though, I must say I'm at a bit of a loss how you take these guys http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemPic.asp?S=852272-1, and make them peaceful happy good guys...

Steve

Athos wrote:

Quickblade22 wrote: Though, I must say I'm at a bit of a loss how you take these guys http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemPic.asp?S=852272-1, and make them peaceful happy good guys...

Steve

An idea I came up with after reading that is perhaps undeath is a curse they suffer. Maybe they were regular soldiers in a decent enough kingdom when some magical catastrophy transformed them into undead creatures. They still retain their identities and they seek to continue to protect their kingdom (which may have been entirely transformed, or not) and possible seek to end the curse.

Tyrant wrote: An idea I came up with after reading that is perhaps undeath is a curse they suffer. Maybe they were regular soldiers in a decent enough kingdom when some magical catastrophy transformed them into undead creatures. They still retain their identities and they seek to continue to protect their kingdom (which may have been entirely transformed, or not) and possible seek to end the curse.

Perhaps it is All Hallow's Eve and they are really into the holiday?

On topic though, I do not mind an "evil" faction as they all seem to stck to the same colour scheme: dark red, red, black, brown, dark grey/bley. This makes it easy to assemble large armies of baddie factions under the same cause. An example would be Fright Knights, Vladek/Shadow Knights, Torlls/Orcs and Skellies, maybe Bulls (I have none); together they work as well as apart in MOCs. You can also compile out of theme characters into these armies too, such as the Tygurah/Yeti/Dragonman, Wookies as Bugbears and Darth Mauls as demons for example.

Good guys on the other hand have been far harder for me, I only really got into castle during KKII, having only a few Dark Forest sets from early on. The only matching colours I have for the goodies are Crownies, KKII's chess people, KKII's blue knights and KKII's eagle(?) knight, as well as a couple dwarves her and there. I wish TLC would keep good factions generally along the same colour line in the future and not have a rainbow of good guys *cough*KKII*cough*