Ninja - A CC discussion

Post by **architect** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:29 am

Ninja is Castles.

That is debatable. (and perhaps it should be debated again)

Since the beginning of Classic-Castle, the LEGO Castle forum has been reserved for discussion about sets in the Castle theme (as found in our set archives). As the sets admin, I plan to keep it this way.

Our main page does not have a Ninja theme - it has a Castle theme. I believe that a specific focus is better for the sets section and General Lego is better for Ninja discussions.

Ben E.
Sets Admin

Glencaer · Post by **Glencaer** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:52 am

architect wrote: That is debatable. (and perhaps it should be debated again)

I hate to question a fellow admin, but I agree that Ninja is a subtheme of Castle (Lugnet agrees with me, hence lugnet.castle.ninja) - following the argument that Ninja is Castle, but Castle is not necessarily Ninja. I define Castle as "Medieval" - regardless of local. Medieval Japan or Medieval Europe.

Having said all that, I agree the post should be moved. Lego Castle is for Set *discussion* not speculation, or even wishing. (they belong in either General of DearLEGO). Any on topic set speculation is on topic in LEGO Castle when the most stringent application of the term (meaning "european medieval"), and even then it is questionable.

Any exception to this would be something along the lines as the Bionicle Knights rumor before KK2 was announced. That is substantiated rumors. However, with that exception comes the "No Leaks" rule, which would result in a post being locked, not moved.

Having said all that, I'd prefer a Central Asian subtheme, with Genghis Khan's Hoard and yurts and stuff.

-Lenny

TwoTonic Knight · Post by **TwoTonic Knight** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:22 am

architect wrote:
Ninja is Castles.
That is debatable. (and perhaps it should be debated again)

The floodgates open...

It has castles, covers a feudal society, and uses the Castles numbering system. Parts that only appear in the Ninja line are included in the current "Castles Accessories" minifig equipment packs. It would seem that Lego disagrees with your assessment.

See Lugnet Lego Set Database LEGO > SYSTEM > Castle > Ninja. Strike two.

The basic argument against run:

1. The time frame is wrong. With muskets and cannon, that sets the Ninja universe at roughly 1600 AD give or take a few decades.

Rebuttal: That's an ethnocentric argument. Basically, it ignores that Castles existed all over the world and did not all start or end at the same time. It ignores that Japan was basically in a feudal age, and pretty much regressed in many ways after they reduced European contact following the Tokagawa ascendency. Because the Castle era essentially ended circa 1500 AD in Europe doesn't mean that the Castle era ended worldwide at the same time.

2. All the other Castles lines are limited to European Castles.

Rebuttal: A very weak argument - Lego isn't allowed to expand past the initial offerings?

3. The muskets are just plain counter to Romantic Chivalry.

Rebuttal: A more interesting and subtle argument. After all, technically there is nothing stopping Lego from tossing in firearms into Euro-Castles. They were around for 150 years of what is generally thought of as the medieval period. But what does Romantic Chivalry have to do with reality? The reality is that Romantic Chivalry for the most part is an ideal, a myth in many respects. The fact of the matter is that gunpowder is not an item exclusive to the Japanese feudal era regardless of whether Lego chooses to represent it or not.

4. Ninja doesn't mix in well with all my other Euro-centric Castles stuff.

Rebuttal: I understand the interest may not be there because of such, and if you want to focus Classic-Castle on the European aspects of Castles that's certainly a conscious choice that is up to The Classic-Castles Powers-That-Be (and opens up another avenue of debate separate from this one). But not liking Ninja, not wanting it mixed in with Eurpean-oriented Castles, and claiming that Ninja simply isn't Castles are different things.

Which is to say, if you want to stick Ninja in with "General Lego" because you don't think it matches the general thrust of Classic-Castle, that's a different argument. But if you want to say it simply isn't a part of the Lego Castles line, I think you need to make a case against a mountain of evidence otherwise.

TwoTonic Knight · Post by **TwoTonic Knight** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:40 am

Glencaer wrote:
Having said all that, I agree the post should be moved. Lego Castle is for Set *discussion* not speculation, or even wishing. (they belong in either General of DearLEGO). Any on topic set speculation is on topic in LEGO Castle when the most stringent application of the term (meaning "european medieval"), and even then it is questionable.

Then should the current poll on Legend color speculation need to be moved, too?

The Lego Castle section has not actually been limited to existent sets - it has talked about parts, figs, bits and pieces, and speculated on future sets, parts, etc. As practiced, it would seem to me that the Ninja poll should be in Lego Castles (assuming one accepts that it really is part of the Castles line). Perhaps the definition for the Lego Castles section needs to be tightened, but it would seem to me that it is about actual, projected, speculated, or wanted offerings by Lego in the Castles theme, sets or parts (basically, anything that fits into Lego Castles that isn't specifically covered by another section such as MOC, Stories or Custom). I mean, why put something about Castles into General?

Post by **architect** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:11 am

if you want to stick Ninja in with "General Lego" because you don't think it matches the general thrust of Classic-Castle, that's a different argument.

This is part of my argument. During the organization and construction of "classic castle", the admins were quite clear on wanting a very specific and directed scope of our site. One of the focuses was better years of older LEGOLAND castle lines. Factions like Lions, Black Falcons, Forestmen, Black Knights, etc and not as much on Fright Knights and Knights Kingdom - hence the Classic in CC.

The Ninja and possible other related themes (orient expedition, etc) were not discussed by us.

That being said, I think we should get feedback from many of our members on this issue. Should Ninja be incorporated? If so, how much? Should it have its own forum area? To CC members: Please give comments on what you would like and why you think this way.

If Ninja is a subgroup of Castle (as it is on lugnet, which was a decision by them), then I think it should have its own subgroup in the LEGO Castle forum here.

Unfortunately we can not have subgroups in our forums now. I dont think the forum format allows it. But I think encorporating this feature would be nice.

Ben E.
Sets Admin

P.S.

Parts that only appear in the Ninja line are included in the current "Castles Accessories" minifig equipment packs. It would seem that Lego disagrees with your assessment.

This could be the case, but I have other questions about this pack. Why give us ninja pieces and not euro-armor breastplates? This leads me to believe that this pack was quickly concieved, and possibly used to unload excess ninja and knights kingdom parts. Of course I have no way to prove that.

Barbapple · Post by **Barbapple** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:32 am

That being said, I think we should get feedback from many of our members on this issue. Should Ninja be incorporated? If so, how much?

Ninja, In my opinion, should be incorporated to a full extent. Some might even say: "Maybe it's own thread

"
Myself, Being A heavy Japanese-style builder, am constantly debating this. Weather Ninja should be considered castle. I think it should. Castle IS castle. No matter where it is.

But, If we were to have a "Ninja" Thread, many castlers would just look over it, not open their minds to change. So I believe that "Ninja" MOC's should be allowed in "Castle MOCS"
Once again, castle is castle.
Are we going to exclude any castle that looks French? Will we have to make a "French" Section? No, and so Japan should be included to the rest of the world.

Glencaer · Post by **Glencaer** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:42 am

TwoTonic Knight wrote:it would seem to me that it is about actual, projected, speculated, or wanted offerings by Lego in the Castles theme, sets or parts

Wanted, by definition, belongs in DearLEGO - and speculation follows what we want the forum to be like. The definition says "discussion of Lego sets" - which would imply current sets. I include rumored speculation b/c it is future sets.

But random speculation certainly isn't implied by "LEGO sets". "Should LEGO make new Ninja?" is certainly random speculation. One of the downfalls of FBTB is the random and wacky speculation that goes on there.

Ben's action, questionable or not, was made in the interest of keeping the forums clean and focused on discussion. A certainly within the main purpose of Classic-Castle and its admins - to support the LEGO Castle fan community as best we can.

-Lenny

Post by **SavaTheAggie** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:02 am

The following statements are my opinions, and should not be seen as an official stance or policy in regard to the Classic-Castle website or the other admins thereof.

Do I, Anthony Sava, AFOL and builder of many things, think LEGO Ninja belongs on this website? No, I really don't. I wasn't a fan of the LEGO Ninja line. That's just my opinion.

Do I, Anthony Sava, AFOL and builder of many things, think LEGO Ninja belongs as a part of the LEGO Castle line? Yes, I think so. The introduction of LEGO Ninja saw the removal of the Fright Knights (thank God) and disappeared with the advent of Knight's Kingdom. During the offering of the LEGO Ninja sets, there were no other LEGO Castle sets being produced or actively being offered. Regardless of whether or not they were meant to be part of the castle line, that chain of events mandates they be included in the LEGO Castle line merely through circumstance.

Do I, Anthony Sava, webmaster of Classic-Castle.com, think LEGO Ninja belongs on this website? Yes. Our tag line is the source for all your LEGO Castle needs. If we are to accept the idea that LEGO Ninja is part of the LEGO Castle line, as per the above statement, as fact, then we must include LEGO Ninja as part of this website.

That being said, if LEGO Ninja is part of the LEGO Castle line, and thus is included in this website, then it does not need it's own forum. It already has two. LEGO Castle: Discussion of official LEGO Castle Theme sets, and Castle MOCS: Discussion of personal LEGO Castle creations.

And really, think about it. Which LEGO series would you rather see removed from the official LEGO Castle Line?

Ninja
Fright Knights
Knight's Kingdom 2

There are worse things than LEGO Ninja out there.

If it is publically requested by a signifigant portion of the members of Classic-Castle, then who are we, the admins, to deny that LEGO Ninja has a place here on this website? As AFOLs, we may not agree with the member's decisions, but as Admins, IMO, we don't have the right to not include it.

And that's all I have to say about that.

--Anthony

TwoTonic Knight · Post by **TwoTonic Knight** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:52 am

Glencaer wrote:
TwoTonic Knight wrote:it would seem to me that it is about actual, projected, speculated, or wanted offerings by Lego in the Castles theme, sets or parts
Wanted, by definition, belongs in DearLEGO - and speculation follows what we want the forum to be like. The definition says "discussion of Lego sets" - which would imply current sets. I include rumored speculation b/c it is future sets.

I went searching, but I couldn't find any sticky (or non-sticky) that defined DearLEGO as you do above. All I could find was the tagline below its title, "Open message to The LEGO Company. We make no guarantee that anyone from LEGO will actually read them, let alone respond!"

That seems to be consistent with the actual title and not consistent with your definition. Again, perhaps a tighter definition is required (or, of course, someone whapping me over the head and pointing to where the information is

).

The poll, in any case, is not addressed to Lego, it's asking the membership if they would like to see more Ninja, which is not the same as requesting Lego to make more Ninja. And as I said, shouldn't the "wanted, new or old gray in upcoming Legends" poll be moved also? Granted, that poll didn't use those exact words, but that is essentially what they are asking.

But random speculation certainly isn't implied by "LEGO sets". "Should LEGO make new Ninja?" is certainly random speculation. One of the downfalls of FBTB is the random and wacky speculation that goes on there.

Well, no. "Will Lego make new Ninja?" is random speculation. "Should," is more of an invitation to express whether the members want Lego to make more Ninja.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:46 am

This is turning into quite an active debate. I want to make 3 points:

1. How The LEGO Corporation chooses to classify sets should not be a factor in this discussion. It wasn't too long ago that we were questioning where TLC had inserted it's corporate head. We can hardly regard them as an authority about what is best for Castle now. In the end, this is OUR site and we can choose how to classify things however we want.

2. The name of this site is "Classic Castle" not "Everything Castle" or "Castle-ish." BUT we have allowed postings about things that are related to castle without necessarily being classic. Postings about the new Harry Potter sets are perfectly acceptable here. I have even seen posting about the Hockey sets because some of the parts seemed to be armorlike. There is definitely room for postings about Ninja at Classic Castle.

3. No one is questioning whether Ninja should be banned, the question is really just about where to put postings about Ninja. I propose a new Forum for "Classic Castle" meaning discussions about European Medieval sets like the sets from the 80s. And a forum for "General Castle" meaning discussions about anything which might be of interest to the community.

Stephen

forester3291 · Post by **forester3291** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:57 am

Hmm..you guys are doing a good jpb of debating yourselves. But i will say one thing. Technically Ninja is castle. so why don't we let ninja mocs be in castle mocs and ninja customs be in castle custom exc.

TwoTonic Knight · Post by **TwoTonic Knight** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:21 am

Stephen wrote:This is turning into quite an active debate. I want to make 3 points:

1. How The LEGO Corporation chooses to classify sets should not be a factor in this discussion. It wasn't too long ago that we were questioning where TLC had inserted it's corporate head. We can hardly regard them as an authority about what is best for Castle now. In the end, this is OUR site and we can choose how to classify things however we want.

We can also claim that a square is round. It would be far more honest to say that Classic-Castle only wants to focus on certain aspects of the Castle line, rather than engage in rather arbitrary redefinitions of what Lego has produced in the Castles theme.

2. The name of this site is "Classic Castle" not "Everything Castle" or "Castle-ish." BUT we have allowed postings about things that are related to castle without necessarily being classic. Postings about the new Harry Potter sets are perfectly acceptable here. I have even seen posting about the Hockey sets because some of the parts seemed to be armorlike. There is definitely room for postings about Ninja at Classic Castle.

"The source for ALL your Lego Castle needs." (emphasis mine). It doesn't say, "The source for all your Lego Castle needs that we happen to think qualifies as Castle", or "The source for some of you Lego Castle needs."

3. No one is questioning whether Ninja should be banned, the question is really just about where to put postings about Ninja. I propose a new Forum for "Classic Castle" meaning discussions about European Medieval sets like the sets from the 80s. And a forum for "General Castle" meaning discussions about anything which might be of interest to the community.

Those names don't really indicate what they are about and will create confusion. I think it would be better to have a specific Ninja section - or perhaps an Asian sections, but I feel though some of the stuff in the Orient Expedition can be easily adapted into a medieval setting, it is specifically Adventurers and not Castles. The trick would be is how broad would a Ninja forum be - for example, is there a specific Ninja MOC sub-forum? Or would it simply be the Ninja equivalent of the Lego Castle forum with customizations, stories, etc still going to the existing forums?

Red Bean · Post by **Red Bean** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:13 am

Hi guys,

I'd like to chime in with my two cents looking at it from perhaps a more practical viewpoint. My question is: if we were to have a separate forum for the ninja section, how much traffic will it get? If it only gets one or two mocs every now and then, and when they are posted nobody notice them, then what's the point? By the same token, if there's only going to be one or two occasional ninja mocs anyway, why not allow them to be posted on the existing moc forum?

My point is: even the Fright Knight stuffs which Sava dislikes so much, nonetheless has something useful to contribute to the Kingdom of Ikros (just look at the horse of Sava's avatar). The same can be said of any ninja mocs or customizations because I feel that, west or east, a castle is a castle and it's still going to have a roof and a front gate. An innovative technique used by someone in building a Japanese castle, seen by someone else just might inspire him/her to do something greater for his western castle; and at the end of the day we'll all benefit from it. If we're to have a new section for the ninja, chances are we'll all miss out on some good stuffs and the growth of the community might even be hindered this way. Because of this, I say forget the new forum.

R. B.
visit my website: www.redbeanstudio.net

Troy T. Moore · Post by **Troy T. Moore** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:21 am

Ben E. wrote

This leads me to believe that this pack was quickly concieved, and possibly used to unload excess ninja and knights kingdom parts. Of course I have no way to prove that.

This is what it is.

Two Tonic Knight wrote

That's an ethnocentric argument.

Seeing as how I know what that means (ethnocentric), you make an excellent point at this particular juncture.

I never bought any of the Ninja stuff. For me I'm more into European Castle and earlier period, little or no gunpowder. I gave a ninja wrap to my son to make one of his chinese gaurds into a ninja, which he then uses to scale my castle walls, undetected, and assassinate my king

At the end of the day I am going to say Ninja is castle--- Fuedal Japan.

JPinoy · Post by **JPinoy** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:46 pm

Just because Ninja contains firearms, it doesn't mean that you can't simply take away their guns. Besides once you do that then you get pre-firearms medieval Japan which would be more inline with the medieval European time setting.

As for Castle Builders who like History based MOCs...... and wanna know as to how Japanese Samurais or Korean Samurang could ever meet up with the European Knights... here are several ways:
1) pre-Mongol Empire Silk Road (connecting Korea to China to Mongolia to Persia to Khazar to Anatolia to the Byzantium/Constantinople)

2) the Mongol Empire (also includes the silk road; Poland was attacked by the Mongol hordes and the Crusader Knights did encouter Mongol hordes too, who were busy wiping out whole cities and towns in the eastern parts of the Islamic Empire; during the so-called "Pax Mongolia" you could travel from Anatolia to Korea or vice-versa and not get attacked by raiders as the Mongols provide security for their overland trade routes)

3) the post-Mongol Chinese Empire's sea trade; they reached the Mid-East and Africa.. again the Samurai could've moved through these lands and go meet Euro Knights

As for those Castle Builders who like Fantasy.... look at it this way Tolkien included the Easterlings who were an obvious allusion to the civilizations in Central Asia, West Asia, and East Asia.

Actually if you looked at the way the Easterling helmet is designed in the movies it looks like a combination of a Chinese Coolie hat and a the horns and face guard of a Samurai Helmet. The same can be said of the Saracen based Southrons as the Arabia is of course a part of Southwest Asia (aka by its more popular geo-political designation... the "Middle East"). Don't forget that Ancient India is the first civilization to utilize "War Elephants" for use in battle.