The Decline of Lego Castle?

[gormadoc1]

I have noticed for some time that some people have said that when Castle got to the Royal Knights time (mid-late 1990's) that the theme itself started to decline.
I would not say that it declined with the Royal Knights, nor with the Fright Knights.
I would say that it truly started to decline in the Millenium with Knights Kingdom 1. Then when we got to Knights Kingdom II, I think that the whole idea of the theme had fallen flat on its face and the old 'classic' sparkle had died.
I think that perhaps since 2007, when the crownies arrived, that the theme has slowly started to shape a better image for itself in the modern world.

Back to the point, I thought it would be an interesting concept to descuss when we think that the line truly declined?
I have heard some diehard fans say that it declined in the late 1980's!
Then some others, a minority mind you, that say it got better with Knights Kingdom I & II!

I just want to know what other peoples views are on a period of decline for the castle theme?

[Shadowviking]

I wonder if we're talking about the same Knights Kingdom I, because I really liked the Lion Knights vs Bull Raiders series

[davee123]

I just want to know what other peoples views are on a period of decline for the castle theme?

Well, the high point (IMHO) was 1986. Black Falcon's Fortress, Guarded Inn, Maiden's Cart, Armor Shop... Best castle year ever. But I don't think it's been a steady decline by any means. If I had to draw a picture, it'd look something like this:

Code: Select all

10+----+----------****-----+-------------------+-------------------+
  |    |       ***    *    |  **               |                   |
  |    |      *        *******  *   ****       |               ****|
  |    |      *            |     ***    *      *             **    *
  |***********             |            *      |            *      |
05+----+-------------------+-------------***---+-------*****-------+
  |    |                   |                   |                   |
  |    |                   |                   |                   |
  |    |                   |                   |                   |
  |    |                   |                   |                   |
00+----+-------------------+-------------------+-------------------+
   1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
   9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
   7 7 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
   8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

So, a mildly steady decline from 1986 -> 1998, but since then, it's been better. Not really back to where it was at its peak, but better.

DaveE

[Velliscig]

I'm sure everyone could agree that Knight's Kingdom II was an EPIC FAIL. Strangely, though, the year that came out was the year I got interested into the Castle theme. Go figure.

[SPACE MARINE]

I'd have to say the real decline began as the golden 4 (BF, BK, Crusaders,Foresters) packed up and left, after the Sea Serpent and the first euro armored BF came out in that BK wall set (those were the last sets of the "Golden Age" in my eyes) things creeped down hill, RK and DM were O.K, but not great, Basil & co. were usable, KK 1 went up a little lump then down, the Legends took us up a mountain, then fell flat, KK 2 was a pit of lava, Castle (fantasy era) and Kingdoms are now slowly pulling castle back up the hill it fell down, we're about there, we just need some more factions to aid the push.

[gormadoc1]

Davee123, I think your diagram is quite accurate.
I think the 1990's saw a slow, unnoticeable, decline; then it really went bad with Knights Kingdom II. The Crownies were a new starting point in the modern world for the theme in my opinion.

[KumpelKante]

hey guys,

i think the "decline of castle" started 1998 with the fright knights, when it comes to set design. The Dragon Masters and Royal Knights gave the theme an edge and were a nice addition to the existing theme then. Looking at them now, i have to admit that the dragon knights lacked in set-design while the royal knight's minifigs never took my interest that much.

Considering the Golden Age and the classic factions i think its mostly nostalgia. The big four were not bad, bt in my opinion the black knights were the best faction of the original castle theme. Looking back at 1992 i think the original castle theme reached its peak with 6086: black knights castle, 6057: sea serpent and that wolfpack tower.

Back to topic: i think the decline started 1995, because the were only a few sets released from then, which were not that much of a must-have (not that the royal knights castle was bad, its just that the faction was a bit lacking), 1996 had a rehash of the forestmen with few sets, that were not even released in Germany. (it was also the year i entered my dark age) ...and lets not talk about the fright knights and KKI+II

Back to the future: **Some content removed** I conclude: Lego castle is almost back at its old hight... well, since 2008 the quality of the set-design is a bit better than the old sets from the 80s (due to the new parts and techniques that are used). The rest is mere nostalgia.

anyway, i wish all merry christmas, as i wont be the next days.

**edit** KumpleKante: please remember that we never, ever discuss photos of retailer catalogs here. Please refer to the CoC for more information.

[davee123]

Considering the Golden Age and the classic factions i think its mostly nostalgia.

Some stuff that's true-- I feel like my love for the simplistic designs of Black Falcons, Crusaders, etc, may be nostalgia-based. I love the more recent detailed torso designs, so that aspect may be clouding my objectivity But otherwise, I don't think I'm terribly clouded when it comes to the classic wall system. I love that "good guy" and "bad guy" castles were essentially interchangeable style-wise, and that the system allowed you to combine sets. With some of the asymmetry we started seeing in buildings in 1986, I'm still loving that, without feeling very subjective with regards to nostalgia value.

in my opinion the black knights were the best faction of the original castle theme.

Huh-- they were my least favorite all the way up until Fright Knights. They didn't really have a distinctive torso design that gave them an identity. They were just guys with either breastplates or chain mail, each of which made appearances in Crusader, Black Falcon, and even Royal Knight members.

i think the original castle theme reached its peak with 6086: black knights castle,

Definitely agree that 6086 was the best castle in terms of layout design. If it had used the grey color scheme from Crusaders / Black Falcons, it would've hands-down won my vote for best castle set ever.

Lego castle is almost back at its old hight... well, since 2008 the quality of the set-design is a bit better than the old sets from the 80s (due to the new parts and techniques that are used). The rest is mere nostalgia.

It's certainly better than we've had in quite a while-- I'm not sure it quite lives up to the old 1980's sets in my mind (except for the MMV), but it's gotten way better in the past few years.

DaveE

[KumpelKante]

in my opinion the black knights were the best faction of the original castle theme.

Huh-- they were my least favorite all the way up until Fright Knights. They didn't really have a distinctive torso design that gave them an identity. They were just guys with either breastplates or chain mail, each of which made appearances in Crusader, Black Falcon, and even Royal Knight members.
DaveE

In case of the scalemail (not chainmail) the other factions stole from them, not otherwise. But you're right, they didnt have their coat of arms printed on their torsos. But thats ok, they had the best coat of arms (i mean that printing on the shields) and some of the most advanced buildings.

Lego castle is almost back at its old hight... well, since 2008 the quality of the set-design is a bit better than the old sets from the 80s (due to the new parts and techniques that are used). The rest is mere nostalgia.

It's certainly better than we've had in quite a while-- I'm not sure it quite lives up to the old 1980's sets in my mind (except for the MMV), but it's gotten way better in the past few years.

DaveE

Well, the Kingdom-line gets pretty close, but even some sets of the fantasyline had some advantages over the old sets, when it comes to building-techniques. In fact a lot of the buildings of the 80s were just grey walls for a large part. The 2007-2009 sets had less buildings (too few, if you ask me) that had more details but still had some 'holes' in the wall (but by far not as bad as KKII), Anyway, the newer sets still do not beat 6086, but that one was not released in the 80s.

[Tower of Iron Will]

Having been there for all of it, from the Yellow castle to now, for me it's more a matter of finding the right background story for each faction. I make the bold statement that there are no "bad" factions, only my temporary inability to create a good use for them. For example, the first faction I had some significant difficulty with was the Fright Knights. It took me a few years to figure out what I wanted to do with them. It just took more thought and time then some of the other factions.

With the KK2 knights, that was the hardest challenge. For me, I needed to realize that this was the end of another "age". Just like the differences between the Yellow Castle knights and the Black Falcons, this change from KK1 to KK2 was just as drastic. When the Crown Knights came out in 2007, it all fell into place. The Crown Knights color and style set the new standard in this "third" age. I started a whole new continent for the Crown Knights, Orcs, Dwarves, Skeletons and evil wizards, and some custom factions from KK2. With this new area there was no need to explain why there are all the differences in color and style.

For me there is no real decline in LEGO Castle. LEGO had decided in 2002 to change the style of the factions like they did in 1983. My only hope that it will be a least another twenty years before the next new "age".

Now, having said all this, this analysis would be different if I included the Castles and other set structures. I have noticed a decline in the quality overall of how many bricks per set, how many burps and other shortcut pieces that have increased over the years. Because I usually build custom structures most of the time I buy theses sets for the figures and specialty parts.

For me, KK1 was one of the better factions at the time, as far as the quality of the figures. The Castles weren't that great but the stories that I made about that Lion faction, along with the Royal Knights and the Bulls, made my day and helped me through some tough times. Long live LEGO Castle.
-Tower

[Ye Olde Republic]

Just a reminder to everyone: Please remember that classic-castle doesn't allow posting of pictures or discussion of images taken from retailer catalogs. These are prelim images and aren't worth the excitement or frustration that they bring. If you have seen them or know where to find them, that's the place to discuss them. It's that site's policy to discuss such photos, not ours.

[davidant32]

While KKII was during my Dark Ages (thankfully), wasn't everyone focused on Vikings during '05-'06 anyway? While not "officially" Castle, it was more relevant to the overall theme than the KKII stuff and was much nicer in terms of sets and minifigs.

[Frank_Lloyd_Knight]

i think the "decline of castle" started 1998 with the fright knights...

I'd agree with Kumpel. I think Fright Knights might have been the first series that sort of employed a gimmick in order to attract people, rather than merely creating toys that echoed the medieval world. (Not to disparage Fright Knights -- I actually think some of the sets are kind of cool.) But I don't think there's a simple point to a single decline -- I think there have been several ups and downs. Before Fright Knights, I wonder if Lego was running out of steam for ideas -- The Dark Forest sets for example strike me as having been a less-than-perfect repeat of the Forestmen. And while many people agree that KKII were unpopular, the Vikings were introduced during the same time period, and struck me as being among some of the more remarkable sets. As to the high points, that's easy; While I might have drooled over the Forestmen sets, and the Viking sets over the past years, it was the Medieval Market Village that actually struck the right chord in my nervous system, kept me lying awake at nights wondering if I should get it, and finally got me to part with my hard-earned cash to buy my first castle set since 1981.

[Athos]

I think Castle is on an upswing lately. The rumors I've heard suggest next year will be great.

Steve

[KumpelKante]

While KKII was during my Dark Ages (thankfully), wasn't everyone focused on Vikings during '05-'06 anyway? While not "officially" Castle, it was more relevant to the overall theme than the KKII stuff and was much nicer in terms of sets and minifigs.

Well, i was around at that time (completely building with LDraw). But did not come back from my dark age entirely, because of KKII and the Viking sets (especially the smaller ones) finally were not good enough or were not castely enough to collect lego again.

Now i regret that i did not get one copy of that fenris-set.

Besides, Lego did have poorly designed sets in almost all themes from about 1999-2006. So this is not an issue of the castle-theme alone.