Shock and Horror

[ottoatm]

I didn't think anyone would mind if I liked KK2. Guess I was wrong.

Of course I can't speak for everyone, but I really don't think anyone minds if you like KK2. But since you do post in defence of KK2, people are more than happy to debate the issue with you. I don't think it's any sort of personal matter, just debating. If you like KK2 and someone else (or most ppl) don't, it's nothing to get too bothered about - just let the ppl that want to complain complain, and if you feel like defending or what not, it's always welcome.

[JoshWedin]

But part of me wonders why I've come to this forum. I came here because I liked Lego Castle, and wanted to discuss it. I didn't think anyone would mind if I liked KK2. Guess I was wrong.

I don't think you were wrong to come here but that is, of course, up to you. I have tried to stay out of the KK2 discussion but my hand grabbed the mouse and clicked "reply" before I could stop it. Here is what I have to say:

No one minds if you like KK2. But I think you are taking it personally when other people don't like it. It is KK2 that is disliked by many people, not you. I don't think you need to defend the theme every time someone doesn't like it. The Bulls got bashed in a similar way when they came out but now they have their place. There are things I like that others don't, so I build with them and show people what can be done. For instance, I like the lego dinosaurs. And I have build a number of beasts for my minifigs to fight. I even built a beast out the HP three headed dog and I haven't seen anyone else try that (but I might have missed it). I have been told time and again that they look juniorized. But some people like them and, more importantly, I like them. So I build.

So, instead of taking the criticism personally, why don't you just be the biggest KK2 fan on this site (there are others, they just aren't as vocal) and show the rest of us what can be done with KK2 stuff. I believe that is the biggest grip about the theme. That the brightly colored pieces are useless for building medieval castle stuff. So show us. Ignore the "bashing", and build. I have found some good uses for KK2 parts and I am not a big fan of the theme (I don't hate it either). So I am sure you could find even more. Go for it!

[/my 2 cents]
Josh

[Emperor James]

Ah, so we meet again, EJ.

Actually, I own all those sets except for 8085. And yes, I agree that KK2 doesn't live up to its ancestors. I've owned and been interested in Lego Castle long before the days of KK1 or 2. I enjoyed getting the new sets, and loved bulding my own stuff out of them. Whilst I wasn't around to see some of the earlier sets RELEASED, I still bought them and enjoyed them, and also got the later sets in the early 90's as they came out. And no, it's possible to like the classical sets and also like KK2. But part of me wonders why I've come to this forum. I came here because I liked Lego Castle, and wanted to discuss it. I didn't think anyone would mind if I liked KK2. Guess I was wrong.

How enigmatic. Well, I am still interested to know what you like about KK2, and how you plan to moc with it. I know you like the storyline (a personal taste I suppose) but what about the sets is it that makes you want to buy them? Is it the set design? Figs(lol)? Pieces? The "action"? The (heaven forbid) giant figs? Quite frankly, I can see absolutely nothing about them that makes them at all good, except that the horses come with a tile instead of a plate for the thing you put in the middle. Would you care to explain what is good about KK2?

P.S. And dont take debating to a personal level, because it is not on one.

[Sir Kohran]

Ah, so we meet again, EJ.

Actually, I own all those sets except for 8085. And yes, I agree that KK2 doesn't live up to its ancestors. I've owned and been interested in Lego Castle long before the days of KK1 or 2. I enjoyed getting the new sets, and loved bulding my own stuff out of them. Whilst I wasn't around to see some of the earlier sets RELEASED, I still bought them and enjoyed them, and also got the later sets in the early 90's as they came out. And no, it's possible to like the classical sets and also like KK2. But part of me wonders why I've come to this forum. I came here because I liked Lego Castle, and wanted to discuss it. I didn't think anyone would mind if I liked KK2. Guess I was wrong.

How enigmatic. Well, I am still interested to know what you like about KK2, and how you plan to moc with it. I know you like the storyline (a personal taste I suppose) but what about the sets is it that makes you want to buy them? Is it the set design? Figs(lol)? Pieces? The "action"? The (heaven forbid) giant figs? Quite frankly, I can see absolutely nothing about them that makes them at all good, except that the horses come with a tile instead of a plate for the thing you put in the middle. Would you care to explain what is good about KK2?

P.S. And dont take debating to a personal level, because it is not on one.

Fine then. Here goes...

I like KK2 because it has very detailed figs, with new pieces on them, (such as the shields) and old pieces in new colours, such as the armour. The colours, BTW, are supposed to be allegories of the characters' personalities they represent: Jayko's baby blue puts emphasis on his youth, Santis's red puts emphasis on his strength and might, Rascus's green puts emphasis on his good humour and cheer, Danju's purple puts emphasis on his wisdom and age, King Mathias's regal blue does what it says, The Guardian's dark brown and grey looks aged and withered, and Vladek's black makes hm appear grim and foreboding.

Yes, there are only a small number of figs, but I've posted why that is in another topic, and there's also a good storyline reason for it: all the good Knights except for the four seen in the sets were transformed by Vladek into Shadow Knights, and only those four Knights survived. I also like how this is the most detailed storyline for a Castle theme we have seen yet, and how there is a history that explains and ties up a lot of loose ends about the present KK2 storyline. And to be honest, I don't like the megafigs. They're obviously a spinoff of Bionicle. I prefer the sets, which have tons of new features, lots of different scenarios, and each with a story to it. Whilst there IS less focus on building, there are plaenty of new pieces here.

As for Mocing, I am working on my own prroject at the moment, so I have no time to Moc with KK2, but I will say that Danju and Jayko's faces make for good figs.

That's all I have time for people, gotta go to school now.

[Scnicker]

Yes, there are only a small number of figs, but I've posted why that is in another topic, and there's also a good storyline reason for it: all the good Knights except for the four seen in the sets were transformed by Vladek into Shadow Knights, and only those four Knights survived..

Now let's see... I have no problem with there being 4 knights... BUT, if all the other knights were transformed, why are there a total of 3 shadow knights in the sets? What happened to the rest of those guys?

[Suvied]

You mean people here don't like KK2 ?

I like KK2 minifig line immensely. I will list all my reasons and would love to see someone else opinions as to them as well. I will rate them in five categories and yes I am writing this to help people see the positive in KK2 (though I don't know why, I would rather every hated it so I alone would get it at 75% off at retail).

Aesthetic Value- 4 of 5
Are the colors eye pleasing and vivid=yes (yes, I like bley)
Do the sets look interesting=yes
Is there a high level of detail in the building=no
Do the minifigs look fun to play with=yes
When combined, are the sets compatible=yes

Quality Level- 3 of 5
Are the pieces of high quality=yes
Do the sets have durability=no (new pieces don't bind as well)
Are sets well designed=no (with exception to the overpriced castle)
Are the pieces highly detailed=yes
Are the colors consist one to another=yes

Play Value- 4 of 5
Are the sets fun to play with=yes
Do they have longevity in the original designs=no
Are pieces available for alternate builds=yes
Is there room for imagination within the series=yes
Is the original story fun=yes

Value- 3 of 5
Are the sets worth the $=no
Do you have unique or rare pieces/colors=yes
Is there enough minifigs or accessories=no
Are the parts in the sets worth having=yes
Will the sets have a decent secondary market value=yes

My Views- 4 of 5
Are these the best castle sets ever released=no
Can the figs be used for anything good=yes (consider the Morderd(black armor), red and green knights in Arthurian Legend, or Will scarlet from tales of Robin Hood)
Are new weapons, helmets, horse armor, and colors worth having=yes
Should childrens toys not be realistic and depict real life war or feudalism=yes
Is this a good start for LEGO to get back into castle=yes

Overall- 18 of 25 or a score of 72 out of 100.
Last I heard a 72 in school is a C. KK2 is not A+ work as we all know but as SKM has said also why do we need to bash it into the ground. If a child that used to get A's in school suddenly started getting F's (fright knights and KK1) and then worked harder and began getting C's and B's (some sets) would you scold that child over and over? Or is it more likely that you would encourage, help and even praise them for doing better and reaffirm your expectation of A+ work?

Castle is not what it used to be. Good, I was getting tired of it that way. I always wanted Sir Gawain and a green knight. I always wanted new swords. I always wanted flags in more colors and new heraldic animals and logos. Do I want old school as well, oh yeah. Do I want to pass up new and exciting things for more old ones, no! Bring on KK3, I want it. Bring on BF2 I really want it. Bring out the Forestmen or Wolfpack 2, I may need to start donating plasma to afford it.

-suvieD

[Scnicker]

Suived, you have done a good job expressing your ideas and I must say that I'm really impressed, but there are two things that I must disagree with:
1-The colors are NOT eye pleasing. (except for the red and the black armors...that's all.)
2-Most of the pieces aren't worth getting except for the euro armors and such. Of course, one example of those new colored armors must be kept and rest must be spray painted. Also the new swords are extremely terrible. They are like dohs, you can give them the which ever shape you want.
I agree with the rest of your statement.

-Yankı

[Sir Kohran]

Now let's see... I have no problem with there being 4 knights... BUT, if all the other knights were transformed, why are there a total of 3 shadow knights in the sets? What happened to the rest of those guys?

As for the number of Shadow Knights, there is a grand total of FOUR Shadow Knights in the sets. As for the lack of Shadow Knights, I can't really say much on that, but a Lego employee said that they wanted to focus more on getting the King and the four Knights established as characters, and they were trying to get more Shadow Knights out.

[Scnicker]

Year there are 4 of those guys, I forgot the citadel of orlan. Anyways, I think Lego should have put more guys in sets rather than putting a danju or vladek fig. in every set

[ezehogan]

I'm sorry you guys. I didn't mean to start any kind of argument. I had a feeling that this type of thing had been discussed already. I just don't post very often in these forums, and mainly look at other people's creations.

As far as the new Lego sets are concerned, they aren't ALL bad. As stated before, there are a few qualities that make some of them worth buying. I just don't see the thought and care put into these sets that I remember from my youth. Yes, I understand that everyone puts the objects of their childhood memories on a pedestal, but if Lego was still producing fantastic sets, nobody would be complaining. People might still prefer the Lego's of their day to the new, but they would still purchase good quality sets.

Another problem, as stated before is the change in colors. I almost feel as if Lego changed the color of the bricks so that people like us would have to buy all new sets if we wanted the colors to match rather than turn to places like Bricklink. What they have done however is drive more people to dealing on bricklink, and fewer sales of newer sets (in other words, the reverse). I feel that if Lego really cared about the consumer anymore, they wouldn't have tried such a strategy in the first place.

The biggest losers though are the kids, who won't get to play with the same great quality items we took for granted.

[ezehogan]

I didn't say that bashing a set was bad. It's the people that bash KK2 and all its sets as a whole, that annoy me.

It isn't confined to KK2. There are a lot of people here who bash every single Dragon Knight's (Dragon Masters) set made, and let loose with full fury whenever the topic comes up.

I think the difference is in the fact that people could at least pick up a Dragon Knight's set and find some use for it. Its much harder to pick up a KK2 set and use it for MOC's.

[Emperor James]

Fine then. Here goes...

I like KK2 because it has very detailed figs, with new pieces on them, (such as the shields) and old pieces in new colours, such as the armour. The colours, BTW, are supposed to be allegories of the characters' personalities they represent: Jayko's baby blue puts emphasis on his youth, Santis's red puts emphasis on his strength and might, Rascus's green puts emphasis on his good humour and cheer, Danju's purple puts emphasis on his wisdom and age, King Mathias's regal blue does what it says, The Guardian's dark brown and grey looks aged and withered, and Vladek's black makes hm appear grim and foreboding.

So, you like the colored armor? Well, I have never heard anyone defend KK2 with that approach. Do you like your figs looking like that? Seriously? I mean, its rather ridiculous looking. And you know, I remember the old figs being much cooler and more detailed, and being surprisingly accurate. I am mostly talking about the Black knights, but only because I have a 6009 sitting on top of my cp. And I suppose liking the shields is a matter of taste, I find them ugly and unshapely.

Yes, there are only a small number of figs, but I've posted why that is in another topic, and there's also a good storyline reason for it: all the good Knights except for the four seen in the sets were transformed by Vladek into Shadow Knights, and only those four Knights survived. I also like how this is the most detailed storyline for a Castle theme we have seen yet, and how there is a history that explains and ties up a lot of loose ends about the present KK2 storyline. And to be honest, I don't like the megafigs. They're obviously a spinoff of Bionicle. I prefer the sets, which have tons of new features, lots of different scenarios, and each with a story to it. Whilst there IS less focus on building, there are plaenty of new pieces here.

Well, you know my opinion on the storyline, and this is a great example of my reasoning behind it: we have only a few different figs. Wow, only seven knights in the whole kingdom! And the storyline has nothing to do with the sets, unless you count its corruption of them. And, the plenty of new pieces are mostly bad (hemets, swords, humongous wall pieces.)

As for Mocing, I am working on my own prroject at the moment, so I have no time to Moc with KK2, but I will say that Danju and Jayko's faces make for good figs.

That's all I have time for people, gotta go to school now.

You pretty much can't make a good castle moc from the KK2 sets. If there had only been KK2 for the last 30 years, there would be no Robert Carney's Lego castle page, or any other good moc's. As for those two heads, I prefer standard smileys.

[lemon_squeezer2]

Well, I guess I will dirty my hands again and offer my opinion...

I dislike KK2.

Why?

For several reasons. I am asking you here - just for a moment - compare 8781 to the King's castle of 1984, or even better to sets like the BFF or the Black Knight's Castle. If you want to be more brutal, try comparing the joust set to *any* other castle set in previous years.

It just doesn't add up. Lego is very capable of producing decent sets. We see that in Trains, Designer, Town, Star Wars, and Harry potter.

Even compared to sets released this year, KK2 doesn't make sense. I have offered my opinions in other posts so I will not elaborate. Lego is shortchanging us here and I don’t like it. I have not bought any KK2 sets this year because each time I look at one on the store shelf I immediately think “Hey – for twenty dollars I can get double the parts on Bricklink and finish my project”. Design falls short, and quite personally, I don’t see myself using pieces like this.

I cannot accept this new line. I simply cannot.

I have to say though, the introduction of it has seemed to spur builders on to turning to their own resources and we are seeing an abundence of excellent MOCs.

[Formendacil]

So, you like the colored armor? Well, I have never heard anyone defend KK2 with that approach. Do you like your figs looking like that? Seriously? I mean, its rather ridiculous lookingin my opinion. And you know, I remember the old figs being much cooler and more detailedin my opinion, and being surprisingly accurate. I am mostly talking about the Black knights, but only because I have a 6009 sitting on top of my cp. And I suppose liking the shields is a matter of taste, I find them ugly and unshapely.

Well, you know my opinion on the storyline, and this is a great example of my reasoning behind it: we have only a few different figs. Wow, only seven knights in the whole kingdom! And the storyline has nothing to do with the sets, unless you count its corruption of them. And, the plenty of new pieces are mostly bad in my opinion(hemets, swords, humongous wall pieces.)

You pretty much can't make a good castle moc from the KK2 sets.in my opinion If there had only been KK2 for the last 30 years, there would be no Robert Carney's Lego castle page, or any other good moc's. in my opinionAs for those two heads, I prefer standard smileys.

Please note: All the in my opinion's contained in the abridged quote above are the inserts of the current poster.

As you noted a couple times, Emperor James, and as I have taken the blatant liberty of inserting, your argument is based on OPINION.

Indeed, the whole argument, for EITHER side, is completely a matter of opinion. Opinion can never be tried in court, or ruled on affirmatively. Unless you are able to change a person's opinion, it remains the same; and in this case, completely at loggerheads with your own.

Personally speaking, my opinion is that KK2 is the weakest "Castle" line LEGO has made, and that they really dropped the ball in doing so, although there are certain redeeming features. This is, however, just my opinion. It doesn't matter how many times I state it, I am unlikely to change anyone else's mind by saying so.

Neither *hint, hint* are you SKM likely to change anyone else's mind by the continual restatement of your opinions. And quite frankly, I don't think that any amount of additional discussion on the topic is likely to change the mind of either of you at this time.

All that you are succeeding in doing is creating a certain amount of enmity, and making the whole community more uncomfortable.

You both bring up good points, but is still ENTIRELY a matter of personal opinion as to whether KK2 is a good line or not. The opinion of many kids out there is that it is a good theme, the opinion of many AFOLs is that it is not.

Please don't tell me that either of you think you will convince the other that YOUR opinion is right.

It's an opinion, there IS no right. Or wrong.

[JoshWedin]

[snip] I don't think that any amount of additional discussion on the topic is likely to change the mind of either of you at this time.

All that you are succeeding in doing is creating a certain amount of enmity, and making the whole community more uncomfortable.

You both bring up good points, but is still ENTIRELY a matter of personal opinion as to whether KK2 is a good line or not. The opinion of many kids out there is that it is a good theme, the opinion of many AFOLs is that it is not.

Please don't tell me that either of you think you will convince the other that YOUR opinion is right.

It's an opinion, there IS no right. Or wrong.

Very well said. I second that.

Josh