Realistic castles = dull?

[Kev]

[architect] ok, yaron
[Webrain] A castle question for a change:-)
[Webrain] What do you think a bout the new Knight's Kingdon sets?
[Webrain] Do you think they will be as a big succsess as castle once was?
[sink] i've seen the castle products in person, and personally I thought they were awesome. Sure they aren't as dull and realistic as the previous ones or real life ones, but they are cool. Of course I loved a Knights Tale, if that tells you anything
[sink] in fact, I liked them so much that when you guys were upset about them, I was more than a little confused why. (I understand now)
[Webrain] ok, Thanks

--Jake Makee during CC chat.

This quote has been bothering me for awhile. It seems that the "official" line at TLC is that a "fantastic," Day-Glo world of wheeled horses and giant serpent heads and boulder-soccer and computer-generated heraldry is somehow more fun and more cool than castle sets like the Black Falcon's Fortress or 6086 castle, or knights in metal-colored armor swinging metal-colored swords wearing historically colorful heraldry, or Siege towers & battering rams. This also presumes that those "classic," realistic sets, which sold (presumably) extremely well in their day would not appeal to to-day's child, and that more "fantastic" elements are needed, even though their own sales records may reveal that the entire decline of lego castle started with the fantastical Fright Knight sets.

So is this the case? Are kids just not interested in the realism and history behind their toys? Are they not interested in real castles & knights, and in buying toys with which they can act them out? Are parents not interested in buying boxes of toys that match the pictures in the historical books they buy for their kids? It's like somehow Lego Corp tries to make "realistic" dinosaurs, since kids like realistic dinosaurs, and are interested in learning the history and accuracy of dinosaurs, but then makes racecar knights in barbie colors, and swinging serpent heads & robot swords because kids aren't interested in real knights and castles, and need bright colors and every possible spinning, flicking, whirling gizzmo to catch their attention. Is this true? Or is lego turning its back more and more on its former educational role, leaving that for the Playmobiles of the world?

Somehow I think Lego started missing the boat when it began trying to make "action toys that are quick to build but fun to play with" instead of play sets that take time and are fun to build, and rebuild, and build again according to the child's imagination. It's nice to hear that they are striving to go "back to the brick," but I'd still like them to also keep the educational element in there too.

[Mr. D]

Yes, Kev, thanks for posting this. That also struck me as I read the transcript of the chat with Jake McKee. I personally think that the set designers (or whatever they're called) don't feel like trying to make historically accurate buildings; it's much easier to throw a bunch of bricks and accessories together, then mold them in a couple of different colors, using a rainbow as a palate. Sorry if I'm being to cynical, but it's very trying to see the castle line go from sets that have rubbish design (a lot of them) but pretty good figs and accessories, to a line that has weird colors, accessories, figs, and is still mostly rubbish as far as set design.

Mr. D

[TwoTonic Knight]

It entirely depends. One side will say, "Kewl! Colorful knights in adventure sets." The other will say, "What are these unrealistic jellybean colored things that look like the Power Rangers meets Hollywood Knights doing in a Lego box?" Jake is of the former - and clearly doesn't even understand that virtually the entire dedicated Lego community is of the latter.

The thing is, the entire dedicated Lego community might not be their prime market. Sometimes you die if you only cater to the fanatics. I can't say Lego is wrong, just wrong for me on this particular front.

But it is troubling that Lego was clueless about the reactions to various decisions they have made. Not because of the reaction per se but that they obviously made an uninformed decision without regard to that reaction. If they knew the reaction and went ahead, then at least they considered the repurcussions - hey, business is business, and sometimes you have to make hard decisions and I understand that. But they didn't consider the reaction and were clearly surprised by it. Makes me wonder.

[wlister]

I am not sure what TLC is thinking, I have two children in their target age group and neiher of them think the new castle line is good. I showed the pictures to my son and asked him if he wanted them for his birthday and he said no, they don't look like castles. His Birthday is in July so the release date would have been favorable. He did ask for a BFF though. He liked it better.

My daughter who likes the Belville fairy tale line also did not like these sets. She seemed to think they weren't fancy enough and were kind of boring.
That would almost seem to be the case for most of their friends when I show them the new castle line. They all seem to think its boring. One boy aged 8 asked me where all the soldiers were. Apparently in is not just the AFOL who notices that sets don't have enough Knights in them.

Most of the kids I have talked to seem to think the BFF is a better castle than the new one. So Perhaps it is just a few children related to TLC employees they use in their focus groups that like this junk. Perhaps in being geographically closer to real castles overexposes them to castles so those children are tired of realistic castles. I doubt that is the case, but what other explanation is there.

TLC is either not taking the fantasy elements far enough or they have strayed to far from their original castle line. Either way I see doom in the future for this line.

TLC must have forgotten that most AFOLs are really like big children with more money to buy stuff, so when we like something, it sells well. We may not be the biggest market, but we are an indication of what other parents will buy their kids.

I think Jake must have forgotton that despite the oddly fantastical castle in Knight's Tale, the knights had shiney silver armor, not purple, light blue, red and green. There were also a lot of soldiers and knights in that movie. Not two Bad Guys laying seige to a castle with 4 knights and a king.

I hope the other themes will keep TLC afloat as I don't think they can rely too much on the success of the Knights Kindom line or the Harry Potter line. The new Hogwart's castle looks pretty sweet though. So I won't complain about design, just the new colors.

Edited to take the unitended European generalization out.

Will

[Mr. D]

Clearly put.

Mr. D

[Jojo]

Hello!

I showed the pictures to my son and asked him if he wanted them for his birthday and he said no, they don't look like castles. (...) He did ask for a BFF though. He liked it better.

Good boy.

Most of the kids I have talked to seem to think the BFF is a better castle than the new one. So Perhaps it is just a few European children they use in their focus groups that like this junk. Perhaps in Europe children are tired of realistic castles. I doubt that is the case, but what other explanation is there.

I take that as a personal offence! Prepare to die!
It's not the failure of the European kids that there are Powerrangers and Galidor that have been melted by TLC into this unspeakable Easteregg Knights line...

I highly doubt that this is a matter of geography-related issues. Ask a kid (in America as well as in Europe) that almost never plays with LEGO but rather with his/her X-Box or Play Station what Castles are better: 6074 and 6080 or those from the upcoming KK2 line. Not unilkely these kids would answer "the colourful ones" = KK2.

TLC thought they could combine the play factor from Play Station games with their traditional play factor "brick building". Better: TLC thought they had to combine these two play values; they felt they were forced to bring this computer game style into their products for the current situation on the toys' market. Most of the recent LEGO products are all about combat and fighting. Racers, Bionicles, good guys versus bad guys all over the place.
That's rather two-dimensional thinking. And *caugh* sorry, this good-guys-versus-bad-guys-thing is an American attitude rather than European

The new Hogwart's castle looks pretty sweet though. So I won't complain about design, just the new colors.

It does. And I agree that the new colours are something to complain about. When I saw the new Hogwarts Castle I thought: Nice, I'd like to buy it. But then I remembered that all the light grey and dark grey parts along with the brown parts are as useful as glued, and I abandoned the plan to buy it.


Bye
Jojo

[stuifzand]

What he (Jojo) says...

and...
"just a few European children" is probably not the most tactful way to tell you disagree.
I certainly hope you don't think of Europeans as "just" Europeans.
Sorry, but I'm feeling kind of offended.

And *caugh* sorry, this good-guys-versus-bad-guys-thing is an American attitude rather than European

*caugh* I agree

[the_great_one]

"A few european children"


TGO

[Kev]

Back on topic!

We don't know what children are used in the notorious "focus groups" (probably employees children), but there is obviously this feeling within Lego that as has been stated, kids need "bright pretty colors and spinning things" to seduce them away from the powerful drugs of computer games and tvs.

However, do not the games themselves also drive "outside the box" interests? I know there has been a resurgence in interest amongst teenagers and pre-teens in WW2 toys and books because of all the WW2 videogames, yet the toys seem to strive for accuracy as do the video games & movies themselves. No toy sky blue tanks, no GI Joe kicking handgrenades at the japanese. So why shouldn't the same be true with knights & castle? I'll confess I know absolutely nothing about what medieval videogames are out there, but I'm sure there's a few. And they must have some sense of realism, correct? so how could Lego think making unrealistic sets would appeal to these children, who, from what I've seen, are growing more discerning as to historical accuracy, and also more interested in collecting toys to complement their videogame toys into their teen years? I think much of the appeal (and success!) of Megablocks Dragons has been making it grittier, if not more realistic, and thus accessible to an older crowd, along with the traditional pre-teen markets.

Realism in Castle is not dull or boring!

[TwoTonic Knight]

What he (Jojo) says...

and...
"just a few European children" is probably not the most tactful way to tell you disagree.
I certainly hope you don't think of Europeans as "just" Europeans.
Sorry, but I'm feeling kind of offended.

And *caugh* sorry, this good-guys-versus-bad-guys-thing is an American attitude rather than European

*caugh* I agree

Everyone is so touchy! What he said does not come out as "a few children who are just Europeans". It should be read as, "Just a few children from Europe." The "just" is refering to the small amount, not the location.

[LEGOFREAK]

Back on topic!

Realism in Castle is not dull or boring!

BOO YA

You said it man. The long and short of it is that the older more realistic (for lego) castles were not dull or boring. I didnt buy the king leos castle for the fact that it looked dull and boring, and I was building better ones anyway.
Maybe the kids they interviewed were hopped up on too much breakfast cereal and not thinking clearly?

Freak

[Kev]

I didnt buy the king leos castle for the fact that it looked dull and boring, and I was building better ones anyway.

Good point, LF!

What did Lego show their "focus groups," anyway? KK1 obviously wasn't a success, because they discontinued it. If that was what Lego was showing kids "realistic" castles were, no wonder they thought it was dull and boring! Now give them 6086, and I'd bet you'd get a different answer!

[wlister]

Wow,

I should have said a few TLC employee's kids. It doesn't seem like TLC focus groups ever produce anything constructive we have watched the demise of the castle line ever since the Dragon Master line. I figured since TLC is based in Billund that perhaps the kids they were selecting from around that area were tired of realistic castles. Perhaps haveing real castles closer geographically would make fantasy castles more appealling. That was my point.

Most toy companies do invest in focus groups usually from populations geographically close to where they are based. So if TLC does have focus groups, they are very likely to be of European decent. Most likely either related to TLC employees or living very close to Billund. That was what I had meant by just a few Europeans. I was not belittling people from Europe or trying to lump them all together.

In the future I will try to make sure my cynicism has a more narrow focus.


Back to the point, my kids are a part of the X-Box, Playstation and Nintendo Generation and the supposedly "duller" realistic castles appeal more to them and their friends who are just as video game inundated as every other kid in North America. There, now I've insulted North American children and their game playing ways.

On a side note the idea of good guys and bad guys did not originate in North America. Beowulf is the oldest surviving epic of British literature and it was focused around a good guy/bad guy scenario. In fact pretty much everything that has happened in world history can be linked to the good guy/bad guy scenario. If no one ever believed their enemies were the bad guys, how could any wars have been waged. North America may have popularized the modern godguy/bad guy scenario, but we can hardly be credited with creating the genre.

Will

[Kev]

Good guys vs bad guys.

This seems to be derived from the "kids-playing-with-army-men" scenario, which, having existed as long as wars have been fought between two sides, would certainly predate Columbus's big trip.

Now we are soooo way off topic, back to lego before this gets shut down!

[Bruce N H]

This whole thing gets to the question of whether kids today are in some way inherently different from kids a few years back. I do hear this often, that kids need brighter and flashier toys to woo them away from video games/MTV/the internet. I even hear this from colleagues (I teach at the college level) that they've seen a dramatic change in the past 15 years in student performance which they attribute to some or all of the above ills (or perceived ills). I don't know about that, as I've only been teaching for a couple of years, but something in me rebels against that. Perhaps there is an exterior coating that is based on some of the above, but I think underneath the core is the same, and if we present kids with the better material (LEGO, chemistry class, etc) they will respond in kind. I think this is especially true at the target age for these sets, which should come somewhat before they've been too "damaged" by MTV etc. Start them off with the good stuff and they'll never turn to the bad. Start them with garbage and they might become used to garbage.

A few other points on this thread:

Good guy vs bad guy -- I cannot comment on whether this is a US rather than Europe thing (perhaps so), but it is certainly not a recent thing. Oh so many years ago when I was a kid it was always about cops vs robbers, or cowboys vs indians, or Batman vs the Joker, etc. Even with LEGO there were usually factions, though they weren't so well defined as "these Bull Knights are ugly, therefore they must be bad", but rather (for me) it was the red classic space guys vs the white classic space guys.

Action -- Action has always been part of LEGO. Aside from Castle guys with factions and weapons, even in Town there were always more police and fire sets than anything else (or so it seemed), and while Space was more about exploration than fighting, there were always those 1x2 with handles making lasers at the front of a spaceship, as well as missles (to launch a sattelite, yeah, right) and the "space gun" piece.
One good point about the recent sets from Jojo is the videogame nature of these sets. Set 8780 in particular:
http://www.brickset.com/search.aspx?Set=8780-1
looks like Super Mario Brothers to me--run along the ramp, jump over this enemy, grab the gold coin, avoid the falling gate, etc. Actually it also reminds me a lot of that horrid King Arthur movie with Sean Connery and Richard Gere--remember the scene where Gere runs this gauntlet where he has to do things like that?

On fantasy vs reality -- There is fantasy and then there is fantasy. I love fantasy (duh, look at all my Tolkien MOCs), but fantasy like Tolkien or Arthur (with fantasy elements like Merlin and Morgana Le Fey) etc doesn't mean sky blue knights and purple swords. Yes, there is magic, or dragons, or whatever, but there is a realistic feel (if not true authenticity) to many of the settings, weapons, etc. The "fantasy" that this line is based on is more the fantasy of cartoons geared at very young children.

Okay, enough rambling.
Bruce