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Why does everybody seem to think the Orcs/Trolls are evil?

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:22 am
by Foxglove
I know that many of you grew up loving LotR and DnD, and I loved these things too.

However, I don't feel we should be branding the Orcs as evil just because they're green-skinned and cranky.

I guess my opinion has been influenced by the Warcraft series. (Not WoW, I didn't include that as it's too far removed from the old, story-driven Warcraft I've known and loved). For those few of you that haven't played these RTS classics, the Orcs have a culture rooted in holistic, shamanistic lore.

I see the Lego Orcs as driven from their homeland by some unknown horror. Battered and weary, beset on all sides by conflict, when at last they found a land their people could settle into and cultivate, they also found it already inhabited. They sent a peace offering to the local sentients, only to find their treasures sullied and their ambassadors imprisoned or put to death by the 'holier-than-thou' Crownies.

What is your take on the Orcs? Crazed berserkers or merely misunderstood?

Re: Why does everybody seem to think the Orcs/Trolls are evi

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:20 am
by Tedward
Foxglove wrote:However, I don't feel we should be branding the Orcs as evil just because they're green-skinned and cranky.

Why am I getting images from Tim Burton's Mars Attacks in my head. Are you Pierce Brosnan as the loopy scientist. :lol:

Why is the Sheriff of Nottingham the bad guy, he's just doing his job?

Why must Dracula be killed, he needs to eat?

Poor misunderstood Grendal, Beowulf was a big meanie right?

:wink:

Of course now all I want to do is build a vignette of a troll relaxing in his library with a glass of wine a la Beast from X-Men. :D

Re: Why does everybody seem to think the Orcs/Trolls are evi

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:39 am
by Foxglove
Tedward wrote:Poor misunderstood Grendal, Beowulf was a big meanie right?


Beowulf was a big meanie, but that's what made him so awesome. :D

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:59 am
by RebelRock
I guess it deserves some thought. We've never seen trolls attacking any innocent civilians in a Lego set. Although, the new chess set has the trolls on the side of the evil wizard guy who has been known to capture that one princess chick. Then again, she is royalty and they have historically been the tyrants.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:13 am
by Heir of Black Falcon
I think it goes back to how views of monsters in the past are. People created monsters as embodiments of fear and forces of danger around them. Makes sense that they are not looked upon as good.

Beowulf clearly is good. Modern adaptations aside, he comes to aid his allies who are being attacked by monsters. How can that be looked at as bad?

Foxglove,

You must be young or maybe I am just really old :D . The 'original' Warcraft I and Warcraft II Orcs and Trolls were pure and simple bad and evil. I have not really played Warcraft since II so I do not know how they are now but they were simply put bad guys in the early days. In II particularly they just destroyed everyone in their wake as aggressors almost destroying the Humans, Elves and Dwarves. My brother said when I just asked that orcs still are considered bad more often than not in WoW or at best neutral. To be fair WoW and Warcraft in general have not moulded my orcs/goblins/trolls much but I always thought Warcraft portrayed orcs and such as baddies.

In the end your orcs can be anything you wish. I do not think they have to be dumb brutes. To me typically baddies, most certain. Powerful brutes, totally. Stupid, no way.

R

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:15 am
by raginalbino
I like my orcs as shaministic nomads. I tend to think that maybe the evil wizard has enprisoned their minds and that is why they raid villages. Or maybe the dwarves invaded their homeland and excavated most of it for its raw materials. Not really sure about them at this point I only have 2. /cry

Maybe they are just waiting for Thrall to release them.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:07 am
by LordZode
In my world the Orcs as nomadic mercenaries have sided with the Evil Wizard because he pays well.

The Evil Wizard's power over the undead and Dragons allows him great wealth - he can plunder vast treasures from the hordes of Dragons and haunted Crypts and Mausoleams without being hindered.

He uses this wealth to wage war against the human and dwarven kingdoms.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:58 am
by Sir Vincent
Trolls aren't evil, they are just misanthropes. In their point of view humans are evil.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:44 pm
by timber_wolf899
Oh i've had it up to my eyeballs on fuzzy morality no real good or bad guys.

Orcs are evil. They murder, pillage, and mistreat little pupies!

We can see that they are the agresors given their knowledge of artillery and war machines.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:14 pm
by Danielas
why why!! it tolkins fault not mine th....wait it is my disition and i think there evil because
they look evil maby if they would not make such evil looking armor and wepins i would dought they are evil

in lord of the rings they were created by morgoth who was worse then Saron
so in my openin they are evil but if you you whant them to be good thats fine with me

Re: Why does everybody seem to think the Orcs/Trolls are evi

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:34 pm
by Moroder
Foxglove wrote:However, I don't feel we should be branding the Orcs as evil just because they're green-skinned and cranky.


Of course not, but when they look cranky, meany and bear a skull in their shields, I suppose they're not a peace-keeping force.

Even being myself a big fan of the Warcraft Series, the whole "we're just orc people trying to settle down somewhere and live in peace" thing just is not that appealing to me for my orcs. Besides that, while Thrall and Rexxar are doing a good job being the good guys, we still have Hellscream, and he is nothing more than a bloodthirsty grunt.

So I prefer to go with TLC's idea, orcs are evil! :twisted:

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:44 pm
by Voran_the_Scholar
In my opinion, no race is inherently good or evil. I'm sick of only good elves, only bad orcs, etc. In my universe, the embodiment of orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, etc. (they have no name yet), are similar in nature to Dwarves. They love the mountains, they love to dig, and they're actually skilled craftsmen and artisans. They live at odds with the Dwarves because of clashing cultural values, but maintain steady and free-flowing trade with the other races.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:10 pm
by Sir Kohran
Why do we and Lego see the Trolls/Orcs as evil? A lot of reasons for this one. The obvious ones (influence of LOTR, DND, etc.) have already been covered so I'll look at the other ones:

Most of us on here, and in Lego, are American/European - 'Westerners'. Look at the Trolls - their primary weapon is the scimitar, and throughout history scimitars have been seen as an eastern weapon, so perhaps the Trolls seem more foreign and alien to us, and we distrust them more. I think Tolkien used this idea too:

Tolkien, describing things in Moria, wrote:Some of the swords were crooked: orc-scimitars with blackened blades.


Then maybe there's human instinct. Trolls and Orcs have always been shown as brown and/or green, and scaly/hard-skinned. Think of the green and brown reptiles of the world - crocodiles, alligators, certain snakes, komodo dragons. They're either dangerous to, or at least distrusted by, humans. I think our species has a natural dislike of scaly green creatures.

Lastly, the most obvious - Lego says they're evil :P

We've never seen trolls attacking any innocent civilians in a Lego set.


That's actually a good point - what have the Lego trolls done wrong? Read this from the Tower Raid description:

The knights have captured a troll warrior and locked him in the prison – but the other troll warriors are on the attack to get him back! The knights must use all their strength and skills to battle the rolling siege tower with its bridge and swinging dragon-headed battering ram.

Does anyone else think this makes the Crown Knights seem a bit evil? Sounds like they provoked the Trolls into attacking them.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:02 pm
by Dr. J
In my LEGO Castle world, it's sort of like LordZode. They've sided with the Wizard because he promises to help them become a great race. (But that promise, of course, is not kept)

But the skellies consider them inferior and generally hate marching to battle with them. Sometimes they push one around, just for sport.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:24 pm
by Formendacil
RebelRock wrote:I guess it deserves some thought. We've never seen trolls attacking any innocent civilians in a Lego set.


This would, of course, require actually having innocent civilians...

(Which is not a quibble philosophically about how nobody's really innocent, but a wry note about the lack of civilian figs.)