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Why does everybody seem to think the Orcs/Trolls are evil?

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Postby JPinoy » Wed May 28, 2008 1:38 am

Personally... I do view Orcs as "bad guys".

Infact... I have an Orc type faction, albeit they're not armed with crude swords. But rather, they fly these odd looking starships with solar-sails and crystal-based weapons.

They're part of an alliance of races defending their home galaxy from an extra-galactic invasion of Cybernetic Lifeforms.
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Postby THESENATE » Wed May 28, 2008 10:57 pm

As an avid Warcraft player, I view Orcs as good guys. The Alliance is what I hate.
But, in the 140-160 page story I have embedded on my hard drive would prove, Goblins, Trolls, Demons (Which have evolved in the story from evil Demons from the underworld to thier own civilized species), and other 'evilish' things I actually nearly always the good guys. It's the Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, and humanoids (excluding most Humans) that are the spanisih inquisistion of thier time. Several species on the defensive side are things like carnivorous worms, large cephalopods, beings of energy, and so forth. I even incorporated and tweaked real world things, like the trail of tears, the holocaust, and the spanish inquisistion into the story.
Back to the point: Orcs are portrayed oftenly as evil because thier first major appearence in literature or culture or whatever portrayed them as evil. It stuck.
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Postby LordZode » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:13 pm

From the official LEGO Castle web site:

Trolls like fighting, and they like gold even more. So when an evil wizard came to them and promised lots and lots of gold, they said they would fight for him right away. The wizard wanted to take over the Kingdom’s castle, and the trolls were going to help him get it.

http://castle.lego.com/en-us/Story/medi ... Wagon.aspx

Boy, do I feel vindicated!

The official LEGO story meshes exactly with what I had imagined previously in this thread about the Orcs/Trolls being mercenaries.

Of course we are each free to imagine our own LEGO world, but I do think it is uncanny.

So, are the orcs evil? Perhaps no more evil then the dwarves who also have a sense of honor and hunger for gold, but they are the enemies of the Crownies who we do perhaps have a fondness for on account of ourselves being human, like them.

Also, the Crownies are under attack by the Dark Wizard, whose necromancy, dragon enslavement, and unprovoked attacks to conquer the Crownies are certainly wicked and evil. So in the paid service to this evil Wizard, the orcs are certainly not good guys.
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Postby Aliencat » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:24 pm

LordZode wrote:From the official LEGO Castle web site:

Trolls like fighting, and they like gold even more. So when an evil wizard came to them and promised lots and lots of gold, they said they would fight for him right away. The wizard wanted to take over the Kingdom’s castle, and the trolls were going to help him get it.

http://castle.lego.com/en-us/Story/medi ... Wagon.aspx

Boy, do I feel vindicated!

Kind of funny how it shows a picture of the Battle Wheel but it's completely about the battle wagons. :)
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Postby The_Fright_Knight » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:43 pm

To me, the Orcs (who I call goblins) are indeed violent and dishonest. But they have a reason: that's the way they're brought up. It's like Rodians or Geonosians in Star Wars- violence is just a part of their culture. They're certainly not deliberately evil, but other factions tend to to think of them that way. That's why they side with Ogel (the wizard); He promises them vengeance against the other factions, Dwarves in particular.
But my Castle groups go more along the lines of factions then entire races. Many goblins train as Ninjas or Crusaders, and both of these factions are, in the general sense, good.
Trolls, on the other hand, are, if I may use another Star Wars comparison, more like Gamorreans in terms of culture and intelligence. And I don't mean Piggy saBinring intelligeance either, I mean stupid. They don't really side with anyone, but some go to the wizard because he lets them break stuff, like chairs and walls and knights.
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Postby Bandit » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:07 pm

Of course the trolls are evil! Just check!
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Postby rogue27 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:20 am

Orcs and Trolls are typically portrayed as the enemies of humans, but that doesn't mean they're evil. A human probably sees a troll the same way a chipmunk sees a cat. Are cats evil because they eat chipmunks? No, but the chipmunks certainly don't like cats. Humans don't like Trolls for the same reason.

Conflicts do not happen because good and evil like to fight. Conflicts happen due to disagreements over resources, land, wealth, leadership, culture, power, etc. Why are the humans and orcs fighting? That's up to you, but I hope it's not because some knight said, "Hey! Those guys look evil, let's kill them!"
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Postby WARork » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:23 am

well, does this seem like peacefairy?

http://www.tes3d.com/renders/orc/orc.jpg (big pic=link)
Umm, later. http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=WARork it's it's.. full of junk!:D

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Postby ottoatm » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:22 am

THESENATE wrote:As an avid Warcraft player, I view Orcs as good guys. The Alliance is what I hate.
But, in the 140-160 page story I have embedded on my hard drive would prove, Goblins, Trolls, Demons (Which have evolved in the story from evil Demons from the underworld to thier own civilized species), and other 'evilish' things I actually nearly always the good guys. It's the Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, and humanoids (excluding most Humans) that are the spanisih inquisistion of thier time. Several species on the defensive side are things like carnivorous worms, large cephalopods, beings of energy, and so forth. I even incorporated and tweaked real world things, like the trail of tears, the holocaust, and the spanish inquisistion into the story.
Back to the point: Orcs are portrayed oftenly as evil because thier first major appearence in literature or culture or whatever portrayed them as evil. It stuck.


I can't believe you found a way to make the alignment of Orcs political... :roll:

Many books have orcs as evil, attacking villages for the fun of it, for the fun of the pillage and war - actually, this is how Warcraft One started out :wink:

Conflicts do not happen because good and evil like to fight.


Sometimes, regrettably, this is exactly why conflicts take place. 8) But with orcs it's much more fun to see it happen.
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Postby Teherean » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:21 am

heh... your'e probably right. I might make them allies if I had any after reading this. :p
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Postby legokilt » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:16 pm

Well, being an old fan of Dragonlance, I tend to think of orcs as evil, thought I do have a few humanoids I created that resemble the Irda or original orcs who were in fact good, and not disfigured as we tend to think of orcs. These few live in a small enclave in a secluded area of the mountains within the orc territory and have very limited interactions with their cousins or the humans who live eyond the mountains. They are a more naturalistic people take only from the land what they need and protecting the rest (think of them as the Orc Hippies). The biggest characteristic of these orcs is that they are a head taller than humans.
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Postby Quickblade22 » Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:20 pm

Well, being an old fan of Dragonlance

That's cool that you're a Dragon Lance fan, but there are no orcs in the Dragon Lance setting :P . You must be thinking Ogres.

I think TLC intended for the orcs to be "bad guys", not exactly evil, but bad none the less. Lego straddles the fine line when it comes to toys and violence, and does a pretty good job I think. Fighting doesn't always involve death.
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Postby siabur » Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:34 pm

The orcs/trolls, whatever you want to call them, were a peaceful group of farmers, who were enslaved to serve. When the kingdom fractured and war broke out, they became ruthless aggressors who took out their need for retribution against those whom enslaved them. They have enemies and those who get in the way.
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Re: Why does everybody seem to think the Orcs/Trolls are evi

Postby the enigma that is badger » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:17 pm

Tedward wrote:Why is the Sheriff of Nottingham the bad guy, he's just doing his job?

Hey, that might make a good movie . . .

Poor misunderstood Grendal, Beowulf was a big meanie right?

Well, that perspective does make for a great book! :wink:

To be fair, I've heard more than a few writers, directors, and actor state the best villain doesn't know they're a villain. They may be aware of the fact they commit villainous acts, but in their mind, anything they do is justified by a higher (even noble) purpose or goal they have. It gives what often could be a mustache -twirling characterization added depth and complexity, not to mention imparting a bit of the audience's empathy to a character we should be all rights want to see fail.

In terms of orcs/trolls/things, I have to admit that I agree with the sentiment that as fictional characters, they can be pretty much whatever the author wants them to be. TLC has clearly cast them as rational, somewhat barbarous, greedy beings. Certainly a pretty big character flaw for an entire race, but if anything, it makes them more pathetic than evil. If TLC's trolls have a powerful inborn sense of greed and a culture that encourages it, they had little choice in the direction of their moral lives. Purer evil for me is having the ability to make moral choices and, as a knight of the First Crusade once told me, choosing "poorly." :wink:

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Postby Sir Kohran » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:19 pm

To be fair, I've heard more than a few writers, directors, and actor state the best villain doesn't know they're a villain.


Possibly. Think of that bit in Gladiator when Commodus (villain) is comparing himself to Maximus (hero); he says 'you take life when you have to, as I do'...he genuinely believes the various murders he's carried out or ordered are good, or at least necessary for some kind of good purpose. But to us as viewers, it's obvious what he's really like - he doesn't take life when he has to like Maximus does, he takes life when he feels like it - he didn't have to kill his dad, he didn't have to have Maximus's family killed, he didn't have to have those mistaken guards killed. All of those only happened because he wanted them to. Of course, whether he knows these actions are wrong and is trying to justify them to himself, or whether he genuinely believes they were the right things to do is totally ambiguous.

On the other hand you have characters like Darth Vader and MacBeth who are obviously bad and they know it, but they do it anyway simply because it's what they want. Selfish, really, rather than deluded.

They may be aware of the fact they commit villainous acts, but in their mind, anything they do is justified by a higher (even noble) purpose or goal they have.


Makes me wonder how Hitler considered his actions; did he genuinely believe the invasions and massacres he ordered were for a greater good?

TLC has clearly cast them as rational, somewhat barbarous, greedy beings. Certainly a pretty big character flaw for an entire race, but if anything, it makes them more pathetic than evil.


I must disagree a bit here. Read the Lego Shop's description for the Troll Assault Wagon:

The evil trolls are on the march with their powerful assault wagon! Can the heroic knights stop the giant troll and keep the massive cannon from being fired? You decide!

The dwarves kingdom is under attack by evil troll warriors! It’s up to the clever dwarves to fight back with their mining battle-wagon, equipped with triple spinning blades and a powerful catapult.

TLC seems to have decided on a simple black and white 'us vs them' mentality; the trolls are evil and must be defeated by the heroic and clever humans/dwarves.
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