Classic-Castle.com


The source for all your LEGO Castle needs!

Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

LEGO gaming, including group role playing games

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby AK_Brickster » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:12 am

Yeah if any other entry had touched anywhere near General JJ's in the unrestricted category, the outcome would have been different. As it was, Garheim had the best all-around performance, and walked away with a well-deserved victory.

I don't think it's a bad system at all, at the moment. I mean, Sergeant Chip's vig was great, but how can you argue that Gen JJ's or Mattius's monster entries shouldn't be worth 3x as much? They are like 100x bigger and more time consuming!

From your comments, in guessing you just misunderstood the vote weighting, so feel free to comment again now that it has been (hopefully) clarified. :)
User avatar
AK_Brickster
Visconte des Paysans de Gong
 
Posts: 3319
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:02 pm
Location: Mushing through the Great Driftplains of Garheim

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Lord Mercat » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:24 am

Do'h!

:? :oops:

AK_Brickster wrote:Yeah if any other entry had touched anywhere near General JJ's in the unrestricted category, the outcome would have been different. As it was, Garheim had the best all-around performance, and walked away with a well-deserved victory.


Not what I was trying to say here, I agree completely.

AK_Brickster wrote:I don't think it's a bad system at all, at the moment. I mean, Sergeant Chip's vig was great, but how can you argue that Gen JJ's or Mattius's monster entries shouldn't be worth 3x as much? They are like 100x bigger and more time consuming!


I don't think they shouldn't be worth more, I was just saying they shouldn't be worth so much more as to make the other categories not mean anything - I was thinking they were worth 5 points (which would be worth more than the other two categories combined, which is what I took issue with) because apparently I am blind to the words triple and double and also can't math properly :tasty:

AK_Brickster wrote:From your comments, in guessing you just misunderstood the vote weighting, so feel free to comment again now that it has been (hopefully) clarified. :)


I'm sorry, I was thinking for some reason that the global points received per entry (1 global point/personal point per vignette, 3 per unrestricted, 5 per unrestricted) was equivalent to the voting points. 1 point per vignette, 2 per restricted and 3 per unrestricted is perfect! My bad!

That said, I still think my earlier idea was a good one for global points involving the winning categories/whatnot- see below with adjusted points regarding the correct voting weight.

Vignette- 10 global points per category win

Restricted- 20 global points per category win

Unrestricted- 30 global points per category win

Global Contest Overall Win- 50 Global points

What do you think?
Lord Mercat
Laborer
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:23 am

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Andared of Lenfald » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:57 am

bronx wrote:In this instance, it seems to be greater, but that is merely because the brothers received the majority of the votes. They received two-third of the total votes, so with any point multiplier the outcome is going to seem great.


Yes, but here's the problem with that (and before I go any further I want to clarify that I'm not just saying this because Lenfald happens to be the faction that I am in), while the Brothers did get the majority of vote in their category, Lenfald had by far the most total votes (74 across all categories vs 62 for Garheim). I don't mean to take anything away from the JJ brothers, because their entry was fantastic, and absolutely deserved to win that particular category, but I do not think it is fair for their build to win the overall contest simply because it happened to be in the right category, when two other highly deserving builders each dominated their own respective category.

Let me again reiterate that I realize none of this has any "real" consequences, and the results of this competition do not upset me. The JJ brothers made an excellent entry and they are receiving their due recognition for it. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing other peoples contributions to the storyline, but I do think it should be pointed out that this setup is not really an accurate depiction of who truly "won" a global contest. If one team or person wins (and convincingly wins, at that) 2 out of the 3 categories, and receives the majority of the votes, how can they not be the overall winners as well?


AK_Brickster wrote:Yeah if any other entry had touched anywhere near General JJ's in the unrestricted category, the outcome would have been different. As it was, Garheim had the best all-around performance, and walked away with a well-deserved victory.


But did Garheim really have the best performance? They came in 1st in one category, whereas Lenfald placed 1st in two. Garheim won the victory as per the rules of the contest, but I think it's unfair to the two other category winners to say that their combined entries were any less "deserving" of the win.

AK_Brickster wrote:I don't think it's a bad system at all, at the moment. I mean, Sergeant Chip's vig was great, but how can you argue that Gen JJ's or Mattius's monster entries shouldn't be worth 3x as much? They are like 100x bigger and more time consuming!


I actually think there is a very strong argument to be made. For starters, as long as you have the collection and time (which the JJ brothers have a great advantage in, since they are both allowed to build as "one" player), it is far easier to work with unlimited space than it is to create a great MOC with only an 8x8 footprint. Yes, the JJ brothers dominated the unrestricted category with a fantastic entry, but let's not forget that Chip's 8x8 vignette was also very dominant in it's own category (I need not even mention Caelan's absolute massacre in the restricted), winning by 12 votes (which is a little more than 20% of the total number of votes cast) over the next closest entry. I do not think it's fair to say that any of the entries in the unrestricted category were "better" than the one by Chipmunk, because he was forced to work in different parameters, yet he still achieved a similar dominance in his own category. Again, I'd like to point out that making a good build in only an 8x8 space is not easy.

I don't want to come across as negative, or a sore loser, because this is just an online roleplay, which I prefer for the story more than for competition anyway, but it does frustrate me to see the hard work of other builders belittled simply because they built in a different category than someone else.
User avatar
Andared of Lenfald
Foot Soldier
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:09 pm
Location: The forests of Lenfald

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Ronin Dragonslayer » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:41 am

I don't think there is a problem with the system at all as I don't see how one category win can affect another category win. :? There's a reason the KC makes more than one category: some people don't have enough bricks to build huge - if there was only one category and the size was unlimited, the builders with the largest collections would annihilate the builders with not-so-large collections. Having smaller size categories allows people with fewer bricks to work hard and get recognition for their efforts without their builds being swept under the rug by grandiose "monster" builds. On a further level, building for the smaller categories allows you to use what build-time you have to the fullest. I, for one, learned a lot of neat techniques from this last GC and plan to put more time and effort into my builds - even if I only have time to enter one build, I want to do it right :D Can't wait for the next development!
ImageImage
Image
User avatar
Ronin Dragonslayer
Journeyman
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:59 pm
Location: The mountains of Garheim

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby bronx » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:19 am

Andared of Lenfald wrote:
AK_Brickster wrote:I don't think it's a bad system at all, at the moment. I mean, Sergeant Chip's vig was great, but how can you argue that Gen JJ's or Mattius's monster entries shouldn't be worth 3x as much? They are like 100x bigger and more time consuming!


I actually think there is a very strong argument to be made. For starters, as long as you have the collection and time (which the JJ brothers have a great advantage in, since they are both allowed to build as "one" player), it is far easier to work with unlimited space than it is to create a great MOC with only an 8x8 footprint. Yes, the JJ brothers dominated the unrestricted category with a fantastic entry, but let's not forget that Chip's 8x8 vignette was also very dominant in it's own category (I need not even mention Caelan's absolute massacre in the restricted), winning by 12 votes (which is a little more than 20% of the total number of votes cast) over the next closest entry. I do not think it's fair to say that any of the entries in the unrestricted category were "better" than the one by Chipmunk, because he was forced to work in different parameters, yet he still achieved a similar dominance in his own category. Again, I'd like to point out that making a good build in only an 8x8 space is not easy.

I don't want to come across as negative, or a sore loser, because this is just an online roleplay, which I prefer for the story more than for competition anyway, but it does frustrate me to see the hard work of other builders belittled simply because they built in a different category than someone else.
I do not see how having a large collection or time makes it any less difficult or undeserving of a larger reward. I am not speaking in regards to acknowledgment, merit or recognition (which I feel Chipmunk and Caelan have deservingly received copious amounts of). I simply mean a larger reward, as in the current point system. Do you think there is an imbalance with the point system? If so, where and how?

I also feel you are misconstruing something within the division of categories.

It is unfair to say Chipmunk's exceptional build was not as good as Mattius' mammoth build. It does not even make sense, and I cannot say I have even seen anyone try to make such a comparison. It's Apples to Cards Against Humanity. Or Oranges. Whatever. I do think it is unfair, however, to also say he was forced.

Essentially, I see it like this:
    - Chipmunk is the Lightweight Champion.
    - Caelan retained a title, and is the Middleweight Champion.
    - The brothers are the Heavyweight Champions.
Each phenomenal in their own division. Each clearly dominating.

But, with the Heavyweight division being worth more (not even significantly, so I truly look forward to possible issues), and with such a large margin in winning votes, the total point disparity seems overwhelming. It is not comparable to the other two divisions. It takes absolutely nothing away from them. The outcome of one has nothing to do with the other.

Lastly, who is belittling anyone? If it is something within the jibber-jabber thread, it should really be taken as tongue in cheek and in jest. Nothing there should ever be taken personally. If someone is actually being condescending, bring it up with a moderator. Things like that aren't right.
User avatar
bronx
Foot Soldier
 
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:34 am
Location: Wherever I'm needed.

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Disco86 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:34 am

Andared of Lenfald wrote: but I do not think it is fair for their build to win the overall contest simply because it happened to be in the right category, when two other highly deserving builders each dominated their own respective category.


I totally disagree to this. As Jordan already mentioned the unrestricted category is really time consuming. You need a lot more time, bricks and persistence to finish just this category, than building both others similarly. So it is just fair to win the whole contest if you won this major category.

In my opinion there just needs to be a fair solution for the GC-points after it. The two smaller categories should gain enough points, to avoid making the minor categories senseless to build in. I would say, points are fair liek this:

    For every entry the faction gets 1 (vignette), 2 (restricted) or 3 (unrestricted) points.
    The winning faction of each category gets 10 points for winning.
    The overall winner gets 10 additional points.


Using this method, Lenfald and Garheim would gain 20 extra points each. The faction with the most entries earns the real advantage, like it always has been. That would be fair in my opinion. :wave:
User avatar
Disco86
Master Builder
Master Builder
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:32 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby AK_Brickster » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:43 pm

Disco, this is the exact method for GC points that I had in mind. I just need to run it by the other KC members to make sure we are all in agreement.

Good discussion, everyone :)

I should also point out that winning the Unrestricted category doesn't mean you'll win the whole GC. If you blow everyone else out of the water in it, then yes, you'll probably win, but it is typically going to take an all-around effort in all three categories to pull off a victory. If Garheim had placed last in one of the other categories, they likely would not have won.

Also, keep in mind that in previous GCs, we wouldn't have even had an 8x8 or Restricted category, so awesome entries like Chip's would have never even shown up in the finals. This new format allows people with less time and resources than others to still contribute to their faction, and in Lendald's case, they almost contributed enough to pull off a win!

The real showcase "title bout" is in the unrestricted category. The weighting was described in detail up front, so if people who could have competed with the bigger builders chose to focus efforts elsewhere, then I guess you just have to chalk it up to a learning experience for the next GC.

If we go with Disco's proposed GC point system, all three category winners will be rewarded equally for their participation, and that seems very fair, IMO.
User avatar
AK_Brickster
Visconte des Paysans de Gong
 
Posts: 3319
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:02 pm
Location: Mushing through the Great Driftplains of Garheim

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Mattiusxavier » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:29 pm

Wow! I read this discussion and was like "WHOA that is intense views over points and the GC" and here I thought it made more sense to shake my fist in the air after seeing how things went and say "I'll get you next time Gadget! NEXT TIME MWHAHAHAHAHA!" :lol:
ImageImageImage
User avatar
Mattiusxavier
Foot Soldier
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Jackson of Garheim » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:46 pm

GO GARHEIM!!! Great job guys! :D
User avatar
Jackson of Garheim
Villein
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:43 pm
Location: The mountains of Garheim

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Andared of Lenfald » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:36 pm

bronx wrote:But, with the Heavyweight division being worth more (not even significantly, so I truly look forward to possible issues), and with such a large margin in winning votes, the total point disparity seems overwhelming. It is not comparable to the other two divisions. It takes absolutely nothing away from them. The outcome of one has nothing to do with the other.


But that's just it, it has everything to do with the other builds. Yes, the brothers dominated the "heavweight" competition, but Caelan and Chipmunk also dominated their categories. The only problem was that the categories that they handily won were not worth as much, for reasons unknown. Moreover, with just Chip's and Caelan's builds alone, they garnered the most total votes in the GC, even against all of Garheim's received votes combined. Nevertheless, they did not win the overall contest. As of yet, no one has tried to explain the logic behind that, and I welcome anyone to try.

If you want three categories, that's fine (and a great thing, actually), but let's do away with these score multipliers and keep it simple. The person that gets the most votes in one category wins that category, and the faction that gets the most total votes wins the GC. It's simple, logical, and balanced.

bronx wrote:Lastly, who is belittling anyone?


Here's the definition: "1. to make seem less significant: to reduce or dismiss the importance or quality of somebody or something"

And here's the quote:
AK_Brickster wrote:Sergeant Chip's vig was great, but how can you argue that Gen JJ's or Mattius's monster entries shouldn't be worth 3x as much?


Before people start jumping on me, please don't attempt to read more into this than there really is. "Belittle" is not the taboo word that it is sometimes made out to be in this world of political correctness. I don't bear any grudge or resentment against AK_Brickster for stating his own opinion. But to my mind, that opinion belittled Chipmunk's work. I greatly respect and admire Jordan for all the hard work he has put into this roleplay, in spite of all the obstacles in real life that he has had to work around. It would be absurd for any of us to complain about anything that he is done.
However, with that being said, I do not think that means a bit of healthy critique and lively debate is ever out of place. I want to see the LCC become the best that it can be, and if that means I play devil's advocate every once and a while, I'm okay with that. I'm not bitter at the JJ brothers in the least (in fact, I'm terribly sorry that this small debate has slightly tarnished the victory that they worked so hard to achieve), I'm just trying to advocate that there is probably a better way to run things, in order to avoid less conflict in the future.

Disco86 wrote:In my opinion there just needs to be a fair solution for the GC-points after it. The two smaller categories should gain enough points, to avoid making the minor categories senseless to build in. I would say, points are fair liek this:

    For every entry the faction gets 1 (vignette), 2 (restricted) or 3 (unrestricted) points.
    The winning faction of each category gets 10 points for winning.
    The overall winner gets 10 additional points.


I strongly agree with this solution.
User avatar
Andared of Lenfald
Foot Soldier
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:09 pm
Location: The forests of Lenfald

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Caelan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:18 pm

Wow. Didn't mean to open up a can here, from over in Lenfald's thread, just establishing strategy there, which aligned with AK's vision. I never had a problem with the scoring, just wanted to comment on building strategy and share it. Disco's take is very fair and balanced, and I like his Voting Points vs Global Points comparison too. Either way, good discussion.

All is good, so long as LENFALD stays # 1 :roflol:
User avatar
Caelan
Aquarian
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:56 pm
Location: Southeast Lenfald

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Brickninja » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:19 pm

Andared of Lenfald wrote:
bronx wrote:But, with the Heavyweight division being worth more (not even significantly, so I truly look forward to possible issues), and with such a large margin in winning votes, the total point disparity seems overwhelming. It is not comparable to the other two divisions. It takes absolutely nothing away from them. The outcome of one has nothing to do with the other.


But that's just it, it has everything to do with the other builds. Yes, the brothers dominated the "heavweight" competition, but Caelan and Chipmunk also dominated their categories. The only problem was that the categories that they handily won were not worth as much, for reasons unknown. Moreover, with just Chip's and Caelan's builds alone, they garnered the most total votes in the GC, even against all of Garheim's received votes combined. Nevertheless, they did not win the overall contest. As of yet, no one has tried to explain the logic behind that, and I welcome anyone to try.

If you want three categories, that's fine (and a great thing, actually), but let's do away with these score multipliers and keep it simple. The person that gets the most votes in one category wins that category, and the faction that gets the most total votes wins the GC. It's simple, logical, and balanced.

bronx wrote:Lastly, who is belittling anyone?


Here's the definition: "1. to make seem less significant: to reduce or dismiss the importance or quality of somebody or something"

And here's the quote:
AK_Brickster wrote:Sergeant Chip's vig was great, but how can you argue that Gen JJ's or Mattius's monster entries shouldn't be worth 3x as much?


Before people start jumping on me, please don't attempt to read more into this than there really is. "Belittle" is not the taboo word that it is sometimes made out to be in this world of political correctness. I don't bear any grudge or resentment against AK_Brickster for stating his own opinion. But to my mind, that opinion belittled Chipmunk's work. I greatly respect and admire Jordan for all the hard work he has put into this roleplay, in spite of all the obstacles in real life that he has had to work around. It would be absurd for any of us to complain about anything that he is done.
However, with that being said, I do not think that means a bit of healthy critique and lively debate is ever out of place. I want to see the LCC become the best that it can be, and if that means I play devil's advocate every once and a while, I'm okay with that. I'm not bitter at the JJ brothers in the least (in fact, I'm terribly sorry that this small debate has slightly tarnished the victory that they worked so hard to achieve), I'm just trying to advocate that there is probably a better way to run things, in order to avoid less conflict in the future.

Disco86 wrote:In my opinion there just needs to be a fair solution for the GC-points after it. The two smaller categories should gain enough points, to avoid making the minor categories senseless to build in. I would say, points are fair liek this:

    For every entry the faction gets 1 (vignette), 2 (restricted) or 3 (unrestricted) points.
    The winning faction of each category gets 10 points for winning.
    The overall winner gets 10 additional points.


I strongly agree with this solution.

I think that it does make sense to multiply them for the categories as they get larger. Think about it. A decent vignette could be whipped together in, say 20 minutes, if your parts are sorted well. Also, they're much less parts-intensive than the other categories. So we can say it doesn't take a large amount of effort to make a vig. Now, restricted, on the other hand, takes a bit more time. A really good one can take 2-3 hours, I'm guessing, if not more. So don't you think that because of the larger quantity of time, parts, and effort required for the larger 2 categories(Unlimited is upscaled even more) should be rewarded more highly? I'm not trying to shoot down what you're saying, I'm just stating my thoughts and trying to have some interesting discussion. :)
Romans 8:38-39
The Brick Tavern Flickr
Image
Image
User avatar
Brickninja
Here there be dragons
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:41 pm
Location: Roawia!

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Luke the Swift~ » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:02 pm

Well I for one thought this GC was our best so far! I really liked that Garheim came back fighting in the final round and, took the win home! It inspired me to try even harder next GC!
Cheers! Congrats to JJ and, Garheim! May your beards grow ever longer!
Image
User avatar
Luke the Swift~
Bailiff
 
Posts: 327
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:28 pm
Location: Lenfald

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby GyustSil » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:40 am

Brickninja wrote:I think that it does make sense to multiply them for the categories as they get larger. Think about it. A decent vignette could be whipped together in, say 20 minutes, if your parts are sorted well. Also, they're much less parts-intensive than the other categories. So we can say it doesn't take a large amount of effort to make a vig. Now, restricted, on the other hand, takes a bit more time. A really good one can take 2-3 hours, I'm guessing, if not more. So don't you think that because of the larger quantity of time, parts, and effort required for the larger 2 categories(Unlimited is upscaled even more) should be rewarded more highly? I'm not trying to shoot down what you're saying, I'm just stating my thoughts and trying to have some interesting discussion. :)


I think that, even more time-consuming, all the three categories should be worth the same score, for they require different building skills and planning. A smaller category, such as a vignette, may be easier to assemble, but requires more planning, as you need to build a scene in a small space. And making this is quite time-consuming. A bigger build, in the other hand, definitely takes more time to be assembled, but you can start building it with the general idea and them developing it. Of course it takes lots of planning, but it's a different planning, a more malleable one, as you have more space to work. I would like to see how you guys think of it :)
Image
Image
"Dulce, et decorum est pro patria mori" Quintus Horatius Flaccus
For the Great Lenfald!
User avatar
GyustSil
Laborer
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:20 pm

Re: Global Challenge VI - A Glimmer of Hope - Voting Thread

Postby Disco86 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:50 am

AK_Brickster wrote:Disco, this is the exact method for GC points that I had in mind.


Andared of Lenfald wrote:I strongly agree with this solution.


Caelan wrote:Disco's take is very fair and balanced


Nearly everybody agrees to me, maybe this is just the #masterbuildereffect :lol: :roflol: :lol:
User avatar
Disco86
Master Builder
Master Builder
 
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:32 pm
Location: Germany

PreviousNext

Return to Roleplay and LEGO gaming

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest