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factions... did they ever exist?

Discussion of topics concerning life in the middle ages around the world, including architecture, history, and warfare.

Postby kelderic » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:04 am

Asterios wrote:the Question is what makes your judgement right?in your eyes these people are evil,yet in their eyes they are following their beliefs in their god,who has decided your right?or wrong?oh wait in your mind by your perspective your right,so that proves my point since in their perspective their right.


My point was that even if in their eyes they are doing right, they are still evil. Perspective does not matter, becasue evil is evil. If my own government was massacreing people, I would not say that it was right because of my perspective. The U.S. has does many evil things, and just because it is my goverment, does not mean that I say that they are right. Evil does not change, and the perspectives of the people invovled can not change that.

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Postby ottoatm » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:00 pm

Hmm... I think we are all doing a pretty good job stating our viewpoints, but just have to agree to disagree on this point. I am glad that it didn't get out of control, especially since I might be partially responsible for going "off-track" :P

Either way, when looking back at TT's original post, I saw his question to be:

So did factions really exist?


I think we need to get back to that before I get yelled at by the more-mighty admins. :)
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Postby Asterios » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:15 pm

Bad Bad Otto :twisted: :twisted:
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Postby Tanotrooper » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:20 pm

ottoatm wrote:Either way, when looking back at TT's original post, I saw his question to be:

So did factions really exist?


I think we need to get back to that before I get yelled at by the more-mighty admins. :)


thanks :) this is very interesting... so a lot of different knights with their followers (probaply) in the same heraldry... How about town militia? Did they go to war with their king or stay to guard the city, and did they wear the heraldry of the city?

What would the world be without evil? What would the world be without good? It's up for yourself to decide whats good and evil.

May I point out, that SS can mean several troops for example:
-waffen ss (soldiers that volentured in the german army, like belgians and dutch people at the time)
-gestapo: the people who followed the Führers orders without any hesitation, elite troops who did the horrible things to the Jews.

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Postby ottoatm » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:14 am

Asterios wrote:Bad Bad Otto :twisted: :twisted:


heh heh heh - indeed!

I'm not sure about the militias in medieval times, this is an interesting question to me as well. In the fiction books I've read, such militias or city soldiers have had their own heraldry - that of the city - but that of course, has been only fiction~
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Postby HeartOfDarkness » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:33 am

I was going to bring this up earlier, but someone mentioned Persia as having a large, uniformed army. Actually, Herodotus wrote about three pages of tight paragraphs describing the garb of all the different provinces in the Persian empire. Xerxes drew his army from an empire ranging from Phoenicia and Egypt to Scythia and India. There was not much uniformity in the Persian ranks.

Any large kingdom or empire is only the sum of its component provinces, and these provinces would doubtless be extremely varied. I don't think there were many uniform armies in medieval history.

Of course, that doesn't make uniform armies any less awesome. It's just a little something that all of the little people with tiny armies can tell themselves to boost their self-esteem. :wink:
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Postby Asterios » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:57 am

HeartOfDarkness wrote:I was going to bring this up earlier, but someone mentioned Persia as having a large, uniformed army. Actually, Herodotus wrote about three pages of tight paragraphs describing the garb of all the different provinces in the Persian empire. Xerxes drew his army from an empire ranging from Phoenicia and Egypt to Scythia and India. There was not much uniformity in the Persian ranks.

Any large kingdom or empire is only the sum of its component provinces, and these provinces would doubtless be extremely varied. I don't think there were many uniform armies in medieval history.

Of course, that doesn't make uniform armies any less awesome. It's just a little something that all of the little people with tiny armies can tell themselves to boost their self-esteem. :wink:


there is a series of books put out by the publisher called Osprey the series title is called the Warrior Line you might find it fascinating reading about army uniforms,like Xerxes immortal guard all wore the same uniform,same as the Greek Spartans and so and so on.
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Postby Tanotrooper » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:19 am

someone mentioned earlier about uniform armies...

greek hoplites didnt looked uniform, as they each had their own symbol painted on their shields. They had different types of helmets and a bronze or some sort of hard cloth cuirass. (dont know the english word for it)

Romans mostly looked uniform, but if you look closer, you see that some had chainmail or platemail instead of the standard lorica segmentata, because they werent all as wealthy as the other... Older weaponry could also be used, as they passed on from generation to generation.

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Postby HeartOfDarkness » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:52 pm

Asteriosis wrote:there is a series of books put out by the publisher called Osprey the series title is called the Warrior Line you might find it fascinating reading about army uniforms,like Xerxes immortal guard all wore the same uniform,same as the Greek Spartans and so and so on.


I'll have to look that up. Thanks!
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Postby Sir Kohran » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:27 am

HeartOfDarkness wrote:I was going to bring this up earlier, but someone mentioned Persia as having a large, uniformed army. Actually, Herodotus wrote about three pages of tight paragraphs describing the garb of all the different provinces in the Persian empire. Xerxes drew his army from an empire ranging from Phoenicia and Egypt to Scythia and India. There was not much uniformity in the Persian ranks.

Any large kingdom or empire is only the sum of its component provinces, and these provinces would doubtless be extremely varied. I don't think there were many uniform armies in medieval history.

Of course, that doesn't make uniform armies any less awesome. It's just a little something that all of the little people with tiny armies can tell themselves to boost their self-esteem. :wink:


That's quite right. The 'uniform army' idea is a movie one, to make sure the audience knows which side is which, so we know who we're supposed to cheer for :wink:

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Postby doodstormer » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:03 pm

I think uniform armies are meant to be more intimidating then a rabble of different knights and peasants running madly towards eachother.
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Postby ottoatm » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:00 pm

doodstormer wrote:I think uniform armies are meant to be more intimidating then a rabble of different knights and peasants running madly towards eachother.


heh heh heh... that is a decent point - although it's hard to say how they would have felt back then either way (for me that is, someone else may have a better idea), it does seem like a huge uniformed army would be quite intimidating indeed.
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Postby Tanotrooper » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:52 pm

ottoatm wrote:
doodstormer wrote:I think uniform armies are meant to be more intimidating then a rabble of different knights and peasants running madly towards eachother.


heh heh heh... that is a decent point - although it's hard to say how they would have felt back then either way (for me that is, someone else may have a better idea), it does seem like a huge uniformed army would be quite intimidating indeed.


Hence the succes or the Roman armies againt the gauls, germans, etc. :
enemy at 1 km: hold
enemy at 500m :hold
enemy at 300m: fire catapults
enemy at 200-100 m: fire arrows
enemy at 30 m: throw light and heavy pila
enemy at 30-1 m: hold
Stab them.

The sight of such an armie must have been amazing, as they moved like chesspieces instead of hordes of barbarians...

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Postby Lord Nev » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:42 pm

No, they may not have all looked the same but they all had a common banner they foughr under. Yeah sure, this knight and this knight led their men under their banner but they were all employed by the same king and that king heralded them under his banner. In that respect, yes they did exist.
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Postby Velliscig » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:44 pm

ottoatm wrote:I realize that I am setting myself up for some sort of embarrassment, but I do believe there were some instances other than the holy orders you listed in which there were huge armies of identical troops, although I agree that this would be a very rare thing indeed.

Anyway, I guess my verdict is that I kind of like the idea of all the troops looking the same (although I am aware they didn't), I'm not sure why, but I always liked that idea more.

One thing that has always confused me, I must confess, is how in the world all the knights and warriors could tell who was on who's side with all the different colors and heraldry. :)

I do think that one could use all of the lion factions (for example) to illustrate the warriors of one king and all of the fright nights/scorpions/Castle Undead factions (for example) for another more evil king. That would work and probably be pretty cool as well~

As with most things, I think LEGO leaves it up to the consumers to decide.


Yes, i will agree with you there; how do you tell who's on your side and not?? Perhaps they became familiar with each other previously - or maybe soldiers did kill people on their own side without knowing it - we may never know...


**-Doodstormer: Yes, intimidating perhaps. But i would say that a large uniformed army would represent greater discipline and organization, as well as more money available on part of the lord who owns the army.

I try to make all my soldiers in units of uniformed men, but sometimes all i can get is just all i can get. 8)
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