What is a Trebuchet?

[SavaTheAggie]

Nate and I were talking last night about the new viking sets, and he made the statement, something to the effect of, "Finally, our first LEGO Trebuchet!"

I was going to say something, but then I thought... I'm not an expert, I only play one on TV.

My limited understanding of what a Trebuchet is this:
A Trebuchet is a sub-category of catapult, and that the term "Trebuchet Catapult", while unwieldy, is technically correct. What makes a Trebuchet what it is is the sling used to hurl the projectile, rather than a basket or bucket like other catapults. Aside from that, a Trebuchet is most commonly gravity based, and can use either a fixed counterweight (usually used in conjunction with wheels) or a swinging counterweight.

A Catapult, on the other hand, would be any device that hurls a projectile in an artillery style arc, using any one of a multitude of counterweights or other forms of stored kinetic energy.

The LEGO set in question uses what looks like a swinging counterweight, but uses a basket or bucket to hold the projectile before launch.

So how close to the truth is my limited understanding? Just what makes a Trebuchet a Trebuchet, and what makes it different than a catapult?

--Anthony

[JoshWedin]

Good question, Anthony. I went and looked it up in a couple of my medieval arms books and got varied information.

The references said that a trebuchet is a seige engine that uses the force of gravity and a sling to throw a projectile. That works pretty good, except for the fact that there were trebuchets which were human powered. My conclusion is that any seige engine that uses a sling, is a trebuchet.

I also found that catapults are usually defined as seige weapons using twisted animal fibers (hair) as the propelling force. This doesn't seem like an adequate description to me, but I could be wrong. What other ways did catapults fire? (other than the Lego ones that uses a human finger )

Josh

[Bruce N H]

Hey,

The problem, I think, is that these terms were never really systematic and changed over the years. When in doubt, Wikipedia to the rescue. Trebuchets tend to be descendants of a simple sling and could be propelled by human power (traction trebuchets) or by a large falling weight and have a sling at the end of a long arm. Catapult is a more general term that could include trebuchets, "though this word is today generally reserved for a device powered by elastic energy" (from the Wikipedia trebuchet article). At least judging from the Wikipedia articles, it seems like these originally used slings (and were called onagers in Roman times), but later developed bucket forms (sometimes called mangonels) during the middle ages. Most catapults seem to be driven by twisted ropes, but some use a large bow (kind of like a ballista) to power the throwing arm.

As an aside, did anyone see the Junkyard Wars about catapults? It was really interesting and talked a lot about the physics of different aspects (weight driven versus rope driven, sling versus bucket, etc).

You know, I think it would be fun to write up an article on siege engines and illustrate it with lots of different MOCs, like Nate's catapult, James' trebuchet, my mantlets etc etc etc. I'll see what I can put together.

Bruce

[HenrytheV]

They had a PBS documentary about trebuchets a few weeks ago. It was a pretty cool show. Here is a slide show of the program:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempire ... uilds.html

Jonathan

[JoshWedin]

They had a PBS documentary about trebuchets a few weeks ago. It was a pretty cool show. Here is a slide show of the program:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempire ... uilds.html

Jonathan

Yup, that was a rerun from 2000. I have the video of it, very impressive. In fact this may have been the catalyst that got trebs in the public eye again. Before NOVA made this, trebs were almost never seen in movies, books, etc. From 2000 on they seem to be showing up on a regular basis. But that might just be me.

Josh

[Blueandwhite]

Most catapults seem to be driven by twisted ropes, but some use a large bow (kind of like a ballista) to power the throwing arm.

Bruce

This is known as a Petraria Arcatinus. There is only one documented instance of such a device ever being used. It was said that King Louis of France had one of these (nicknamed Malvoisin or Bad Neighbour) at the seige of Acre. Still, as far as I know, there has never been concrete evidence that such a device was actually employed during the middle ages.

This is essentially a Hollywood catapult. It is featured in several films, likely because it looks cooler than an ordinary onager. Still, I like the funky design. Easily my favorite seige weapon.

Later.

[The_Fright_Knight]

I've done my research on the topic of Trebuchets and basicaly, it's a catapult with a sling and a counterweight.

[Legendary_Corsair]

Ive done some research but from what Ive seen its a larger scale catapult going up instead of left to right,has weights to fire the ammo,a lot taller than a regular catapult too,and Fires a lot farther with greater speed.

[Sir Lancelot]

Trebuchets differ with the common catapult on several key points, among them its size, propulsion method, and counterweight.

A trebuchet's size was an important role in its construction. Richard the Lionhearted had two trebuchets during the Crusades known as God's Own Sling and Bad Neighbor. Both were of an immense size and through rocks weighing almost half-a-ton.


Another important difference between a trebuchet and a catapult was the propulsion method. A catapult is fired using string tension while a trebuchet uses a counterweight to launch its device. Trebuchets were sometimes, though not often, powered by men or horses.

The final key difference between a trebuchet and a catapult was its large counterweight on one end of the main beam. The counterweight was heaved into the air by sappers (men who ran siege engines) and then affixed with a pin holding it aloft. After the ammunition was loaded into the sling at the other end, the counterweight was released and the ammunition was swung in a long high arc over and into enemy fortifications. Trebuchets were much more accurate then previous catapults and were used well after the invention of cannon because of their elegance and size.

Hope this helps,
- Sir Lancelot

[Velliscig]

I am surprised a castle loving man such as Sava wouldn't know what a Trebuchet is. It is a castle-loving fundamental guys - such a great weapon it was!

[Mörs]

THIS is a trebuchet!

Wow, what a range!! I wouldn't have liked being hit by that ball...

[outcast]

According to the history section in my Age of Empires II:

The Trebuchet was a large catapult powered by a heavy counterweight, usually a large box of rocks. The long throwing arm was pulled down against the mass of the counterweight and a large stone was loaded. When the arm was released, the heavy weight pulled the throwing arm up, and flinging the large stone missile in a high arcing trajectory. Missiles thrown by this weapon plunged downwards and were best used to smash the tops of towers, embattlements and hourds. It was difficult to damage sheer vertical walls with the trebuchet unless the missiles came down right on top of the wall.

[Sir Zeppelin]

This is how I was first introduced to the trebuchet: http://members.iinet.com.au/~rmine/Grey ... .html#jake

[Heir of Black Falcon]

An interesting question. As Bruce said during the medieval period there is little cohesion for what the terms actually mean. Catapult seems rather like a general use for anything big that throws something. To be fair from my research the last decade plus of original medieval documents in several languages to me engine, machine or engine and/or machine of war is by far most common all around.

From what I have seen trebuchet does seem related to a large wood beam with sling, whether powered by traction or counter balanced weight. They come in many sizes from two man traction powered trebuchets to massive ones that require tons of weight (literally) and can lob a 300 plus pound rock hundreds of yards.

There is a new thought passing among medieval historians that torsion engines like what most think of as a catapult did not exist in the medieval period, after the fall of Rome. I do not subscribe to this thinking myself as I think there are too many representations in art and text to say they did not exist.

I can provide as much detail and sources as you'd like so please ask if you'd like more info.

Heir

[quaraga]

I don't believe the sling matters, it is merely a matter of counterweight vs gear/lever system. when in doubt, choose the ballista!