The Black Falcons are the good guys!

[Tower of Iron Will]

I think these sets were made with the intention of not having a good or an evil faction, just two factions at war (the Crusaders and the Black Falcons) and the Forestmen in the middle.
It was up to the kid who played with the sets to decide who was good and evil, and that's what's so great about the classic sets.

Exactly. Relative to the person playing with them, whether or not they are "good" or "evil." Initially when I started buying the Lions and the Falcons I only noted two different factions instead of good versus evil. Granted that it usually is considered evil to invade another country for power/wealth/land, Black Falcons had a slight evil bent for invading Lion territory.

It wasn't until I took the time to create an acceptable story for the whole region, which explained how the different nations(factions) came into being that the Black Falcons became more neutral in its overall outlook though history.

I never subscribed to the Robin Hood idea for the Foresters, I gave them a more noble outlook.
-Tower

[Teh Stud]

Why does everyone consider the forestmen to be good? They're thieves and arsonists! No doubt the Falcons leave them alone and do a few favors for them in return for plundered goods, making the Falcons greedy, unethical bullies.

Yet, I still love Black Falcons and Forestmen above all others.

The forestmen stole from the rich and gave to the poor peasants!

Of course considering there were more forestmen than peasants, maybe this wasn't such a good plan?

I always teamed the Black Falcons with the original Knights Procession figures, (I had 17 after losing one on a trip to Seattle), to fight the outnumbered Crusaders.

[Jojo]

Hello!

Granted that it usually is considered evil to invade another country for power/wealth/land, Black Falcons had a slight evil bent for invading Lion territory.

Based upon the number of siege engines each faction got the Lion knights are more likely about to invade Falcon territory. Falcons got two catapults (6030, 6059), while Lions got a ballista (6012), a catapult (6039), a siege tower (6061) and another siege tower with a ram (6062). They also got supply wagons (6022, 6016) and an armada (6017, 6049).


Bye
Jojo

[Heir of Black Falcon]

Perhaps the catapults and ships are for defence? Many medieval texts on war have castles well stocked with defensive traditional artillery. Springalds and ballistas in particular are good for defense. Better than passive defense is an active one. Leonardo Da Vinci designed really awesome wall mounted trebuchets that mounted inside the wall and was reloaded with the sling on the ground behind the wall!

Falcon's have but one ship but the Blakc knights have what two or three as well as a fair number of rams, catapults etc.

I have always seen the BFs as defensive forces though as well.

I wish I had more of the old siege engines. They looked real cool. I have a few of them though.

R

[davee123]

That first post did get me thinking about who is depicted as fighting with who-- As far as I can see:

Forestmen vs. Crusaders - 6077 (Crusader is a prisoner)
Forestmen vs. Crusaders - 6042 (Forestman is a prisoner)
Crusaders vs. Black Falcons - 6062 (battle)
Black Falcons vs. Black Knights - 6059 (battle)
Black Knights vs. Wolfpack - 6086 (Wolfpack is a prisoner)
Wolfpack vs. Dragon Masters - 6082 (Wolfpack is a prisoner)
Dragon Masters vs. Royal Knights - 6078 (iffy implied combat)
Dragon Masters vs. Dark Forest - 6079 (implied robbery)
Royal Knights vs. Dark Forest - 6046 (iffy implied combat)
Royal Knights vs. Fright Knights - 6097 (Royal Knight is a prisoner)
Dark Forest vs. Fright Knights - 6087 (Dark Forester being caught)

There's also 6057 Sea Serpent, which shows Black Knights & Black Falcons-- but... they're shown on the boat together, and seemingly not fighting. I had always assumed they were a team in that set. Anyway, I think that's it? ... Well, ignoring the obvious Bulls/KK1, Vladek/KK2, Crown/Undead, and Dwarves/Trolls conflicts where it's easy to figure out who's supposed to be "good" and "evil".

Drawing a map, we get:



So, if we assume "good" and "evil" teams as the only possibilities, that conflict between Royal Knights and Dark Forest screws that up. If we were to pretend that they're partners in 6046 instead of opponents, we'd have to assume "teams" of:

Forestmen, Black Falcons, Wolfpack, Royal Knights, and Dark Forest
vs.
Crusaders, Black Knights, Dragon Masters, and Fright Knights

I always assumed Fright Knights were pretty unmistakably "evil", and always gotten an evil feeling about Dragon Masters, Black Knights-- so it looks like you'd have to assume that 2nd team was "evil" and the 1st team was "good".

But realistically, it's every faction for himself! That's why they're factions, after all! If they were on the same "team", they'd be wearing the same stylish outfits! I think each genre kind of speaks for itself in terms of its morality, rather than who they're depicted as doing battle against. But interesting to play around with, nonetheless.

DaveE

[Magnus]

I also think of the classic Castle factions as two battling factions without a VERY clear good or bad side.

The Black Falcons were sometimes presented as the de factor baddies in the English LEGO magazine Bricks n Pieces back in the 80s (they are lead by the "Black Knight," of course 6 years olds are gonna figure out they're the baddies).

The two factions weren't quite equal - the Crusaders did have the bigger castles and larger forces, which made me see the BFs as the sort fo underdogs. I personally always prefered the BFs just because their uniforms looked so cool. But of course we're talking about warring factions of armed retainers, the notion of goodies and baddie sort of lose meaning when you look at the various countries that fought each other in the middle ages.

Remember also that in real life different knights and lords would sometimes change sides, marry off a hot 14 year old princess or two, sign a treaty and become allies, etc. Maybe the BFs and the Crusaders made peace for a while to focus their attentions on those pesky Forestmen?

[Blue Monarch]

Ha ha! Nope the Black Falcons are the BAD guys! The forestmen are the boyscouts and guess what? The best faction is the coolest: Wolfpack. And they're neither bad nor good.

And no... you won't ever change my mind. To each their own!

[Heir of Black Falcon]

I did not think anyone thought the wolfpack was good. Just look at them... they look like uniformed pirates.

R

[davor]

don`t think they had this good - evil concept in 80s. it came later on.

my opinion is that Crusaders vs. Black Falcons was needed in the beginning as oposit sides, but later as the Forestmen came to this picture it was more and more everyone against forestman. in most of the catalogs i have - knights of all fractions are fighting togather against Forestmen.

also i find Black Knights and Dragon Masters as friendly fraction, even maybe close related fraction. there is couple of sets that have same amblems like
1971 [Black Knight's Battering Ram] has flag and colors from dragon masters, 6078 Royal Drawbridge - dragon master has black knights shield, also in 6079 Dark Forest Fortress its again dragon master guys with black knight shield. and didn`t see any set or catalog they fighting each other.

wolfpack and dark forest guys are bad guys - bandit fractions and nothing more. both have hideouts, both are shown stealing and all other fractions are fighting them - Dragon Masters, Royal Knights, Black Knights.
... and name of the sets are Bandit Ambush or Wolfpack Renegades....

Fright Knights and Bull guys are also clearly bad ones.

[Sir Kohran]

Forestmen vs. Crusaders - 6077 (Crusader is a prisoner)
Forestmen vs. Crusaders - 6042 (Forestman is a prisoner)
Crusaders vs. Black Falcons - 6062 (battle)
Black Falcons vs. Black Knights - 6059 (battle)
Black Knights vs. Wolfpack - 6086 (Wolfpack is a prisoner)
Wolfpack vs. Dragon Masters - 6082 (Wolfpack is a prisoner)
Dragon Masters vs. Royal Knights - 6078 (iffy implied combat)
Dragon Masters vs. Dark Forest - 6079 (implied robbery)
Royal Knights vs. Dark Forest - 6046 (iffy implied combat)
Royal Knights vs. Fright Knights - 6097 (Royal Knight is a prisoner)
Dark Forest vs. Fright Knights - 6087 (Dark Forester being caught)

Wow, I actually feel quite nostalgic reading that...

Anyway, the Royal Knights and Dragon Masters were indeed enemies; I have a poster (also from 6078) depicting the Royal king charging at Majisto.

also i find Black Knights and Dragon Masters as friendly fraction

Actually, I distinctly remember seeing a catalogue page from somewhere reading that the Black Knights and Wolfpack opposed the 'new' Dragon Masters. I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT: Well I didn't find it, but this page, with Majisto and his dragon swooping on some Black Knights and one of them falling off his horse seems to imply they are enemies.

in most of the catalogs i have - knights of all fractions are fighting togather against Forestmen.

True. It seems a bit ironic that Robin Hood and his merry men appear to be the most hated faction in the land.

- Matt

[Heir of Black Falcon]

Matt,

I have that poster somewhere!!!

R

[hulk hogan]

Black Falcons have a more sinister color scheme than the Crusaders.

Basically I base my opinion on: GI JOE & Cobra

Cobra was mostly Blue, so I figured the bad guys would wear blue lol.

[Gil-Galad]

It depends on how you look at it whether a team is good or bad.

[Wolfpacker]

I'm fairly new to castle sets, but this post compelled me to register.

My opinion on the Good v. Bad debacle:

Lion knights/Crusaders: "Good", in an over-the-top, zealous manner. (I say, dear Reginald, those men have black helmets! ATTACK!!)

Black Falcons: Sort of mind their own business. Essentially, when someone attacks, they go "Here we go again".

Forestmen...I like these guys. Sideless, they steal from everyone, to give to others (yes yes, Robin Hood, blah blah blah ).

Wolfpack are my favorites. Basically taking the forestmen, and turning them from jolly, drunk, wisecracking thieves, into what I would imagine to be a thieve's guild of sorts.

Dragon knights/masters: Not EVIL...just BAD, if that makes any sense. They just sort of get mad if people step on their toes, that sort of thing ( LEGO men have toes?).

Fright knights: The only faction I can actually call EVIL. Yet, given their sets, nobody seems to take Basil (the night lord) and his men seriously...yet.

And as for the KK1 and KK2...well, I never sort of minded. It's just that LEGO doesn't want to support violence. That's why Bionicle was usually about fighting wild creatures, Alpha Team fought skellies, Rock Raiders fought rock monsters, and the newer Aquazone stuff has giant sharks and lobsters. They essentialy NEED antagonists, or they're supporting reckless violence.

But that's just my two cents. To each their own!

[deathdog1]

Personally, the "Robin Hood" aspect of the forestmen was what first crossed my mind when I discovered them (just recently -- you have no idea how long my "dark ages" were); therefore, I instantly wanted to reject that idea. What I've done is as I v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y build a collection is make the few forestmen I have scouts for the lord's army. Right now, the lord's men are preparing for battle against the forces of Mordock the Black (a skeleton head on a standard black minifig body).

Now then, I do see the various factions as being fiefdoms or kingdoms of some such in a basically English or western European landscape/climate.