Who Would Win the Lego Castle War?

[Danielas]

the sickening truth is..the good guys always win

Not always...look at the American Revolution
i agree with you

now if all the lion knights got to gether and became england and all the falcon knights got togethor and became germany the loin knight would win because they halve the chanel and thats three factions vereses two. lion, crosaders, and royal knights. now supposing the english allance and the germon colition boath got mad at wella and majesto well 5 faction verses 2 let see what happens

Edit KK2 would not win even aginst fright knights (example there horses have wheels and and archer could hit them from a mile away(and i do archory )

[HeartOfDarkness]

Look. This poll cannot be regarded with seriousness because it does not contain all the options. Everyone knows that Jayko's dudes from the chess game would totally whip everyone else's butts. Serioulsy. You can't get any more manly than baby blue crossbows.

[Count Blacktron]

Look. This poll cannot be regarded with seriousness because it does not contain all the options. Everyone knows that Jayko's dudes from the chess game would totally whip everyone else's butts. Serioulsy. You can't get any more manly than baby blue crossbows.

No. Majisto with his standard blue duds and glow-in-the-dark star-top wand! He's the man.

[DaleDVM]

The Black Knight always triumphs!

Have at you. Come on then.

(slice...)

wha?

Alright we'll call it a draw.

And that I fear is where this discussion has finally led. Now that cool stylish clothing has come into the discussion. I don't know who is going to win anymore. Maybe we should just call it a draw.

However, the black knights can fight missing most of their limbs.

Come back to the discussion you yellow bastards and take what's coming to ya. I'll bite your legs off.

[davee123]

This *has* to be set up as a series of BrikWars games to verify.

My rough calculations by the BrikWars 2001 rules (not including loose weapons, and some vagueities with troop and structure scoring) are:

Crusaders: 978 CP
Black Knights: 614 CP
Fright Knights: 565 CP
Black Falcons: 527 CP
Dragon Masters: 515 CP
Knight's Kingdom 2: 466 CP
Shadow Knights: 465 CP
Classic-Castle: 392 CP
Royal Knights: 357 CP
Forestmen: 348 CP
Bulls: 326 CP
Crown Knights: 310 CP
Undead: 282 CP
Knight's Kingdom 1: 254 CP
Rogue Knights: 191 CP (Arguably Shadow Knights)
Knight's Kingdom 2 (Gen 2): 177 CP (Arguably KK2)
Dark Forest: 142 CP
Wolfpack: 109 CP

I'd say you have a tournament of 3 games for each two competing factions. So Crusaders vs. Black Knights would have 3 games. Each team gets to be on the defensive for one game (so they get all their castles, stationary catapults, etc), while the other team goes on the offensive (no structures, etc). Then the 3rd battle would be on open terrain, with neither team getting their stationary stuff.

[edit]Oh, it should also be noted that it's questionable as to whether or not the Undead army *also* consists of the kazillion skeletons & ghosts that are constantly seen wandering around other sets. If so, it gives them roughly another 156 CP. And there's also some 333 CP's worth of "neutral" that could be divvied up with princesses, peasants, merchants, etc.[/edit]

DaveE

[Sir Dano]

One thing Davee123, you forgot the Trolls. I'm sure the Battle Wheel gives them some extra points.

[davee123]

One thing Davee123 you forgot the Trolls. I'm sure the Battle Wheel gives them some extra points.

I didn't really try adding in all the Trolls and Dwarves stats yet, since the product line isn't really fleshed out just yet. Plus I'm not familiar enough with the stuff that's been announced because I don't really own the sets (and can't tell just from looking at the pictures what they're really like).

But yes, the Trolls, Dragons, etc, are probably big bonuses. Not quite enough to balance out the Crusader's lead in pure BrikWars CP, but possibly enough to win a battle. Like the Classic-Castle guys, who may have a bunch of points, but they have NO ranged weapons at all. No bows, no catapults, no crossbows. So they have points on paper, but may play out differently in some sort of "actual" combat.

DaveE

[castlebuilder100]

Black Falcons because I like their logo and I like the Black Falcon's Fortress (especially for pieces).

[Dr.Cogg]

It's goofy,but I believe Lord Vladek and the Shadow Knights would win because,Vladek has the power to turn any knight into a Shadow Knight and the only way to defeat him is with the Shield of Ages,so with every army he conquers his army grows bigger.p.s.he also has Rogue Knights.

[Voran_the_Scholar]

It's goofy,but I believe Lord Vladek and the Shadow Knights would win because,Vladek has the power to turn any knight into a Shadow Knight and the only way to defeat him is with the Shield of Ages,so with every army he conquers his army grows bigger.p.s.he also has Rogue Knights.

Dr. Cogg, everyone knows that Shields of Ages are a dime a dozen. Check out this pic (EDIT: Breadman's gallery )

And I think that I would win the LEGO castle war!

[Heir of Black Falcon]

Are you sure Voran? To fight in the lego wars we'd have to shrink you to legoman size. Then you'd have to take on all those people by yourself. Then after, if you win, hope that someone remembers that they shrunk you to make you big again. Rather dangerous, though if they forgot then you could really get into Legos!

All silly chatter aside. Davee123, did you include the green dragons in the DM count? Seems rather low still.

Fun topic.

R

[Voran_the_Scholar]

Are you sure Voran? To fight in the lego wars we'd have to shrink you to legoman size. Then you'd have to take on all those people by yourself. Then after, if you win, hope that someone remembers that they shrunk you to make you big again. Rather dangerous, though if they forgot then you could really get into Legos!

Heir of Black Falcon, I am that good. And if we did find a way to (temporarily) shrink ourselves, we could all have our own LEGOland! That would be kind of fun actually.

All silly chatter aside. Davee123, did you include the green dragons in the DM count? Seems rather low still.

Fun topic.

R

Not to mention they have one of the only official wizards on their side. And they've got cool helmets!

And Davee123, how long did it take you to figure all that out?

[davee123]

And Davee123, how long did it take you to figure all that out?

Not as long as you might think-- but that's only because I took some liberties

A while ago (not sure how long ago) I made a text file that had stats for, well, every castle set, according to how many figs of each faction were in each set. Oh, and "characters" I only counted once in the fig list. So Dragon Masters only got a single Majisto, Shadow Knights only got 1 Vladek, etc.

Then, some while later (probably around when this thread came out? not sure) I added stats for what "other stuff" each faction had along with the set. I counted:

Horses, Dragons, Ogres
Structures (Tiny, Small, Medium, Large)
Catapults (Small, Medium, Large)
Battering Rams (Small, Medium, Large)
Boats (Small, Medium, Large)
Flyers (Small, Medium)
Wagons (Small, Medium, Large)
Siege Towers (Medium, Large)

Finally, I just scored out approximately what each of the above would be worth-- standard minifigs (Unique figs were scored as Hero's), Catapults, Rams, etc, etc, etc. And I wrote a program to tally up all the scores for each faction.

It's not totally accurate, since it doesn't account for all the unique dimensions of each set, or for the weapons each faction has, or whether their heros have magical abilities. But I thought it would give a good rough idea of the CP scores.

As for who would actually WIN such a combat, I'm not sure. Fright Knights have the most dragons by far (5). And putting flamethrowers on flying units is VERY effective. Dragon Masters have 3 dragons, but speaking from my BrikWars experience, I'm not sure 3 is enough to really throw the game balance out of whack (although it's a lot). So my money's on the Crusaders beating the Dragon Masters, but a pretty even balance between Fright Knights and Crusaders.

Any way you slice it, though, Black Knights, Black Falcons, Classic Castle, Forestmen, Royal Knights, Dark Forest, Wolfpack, Knight's Kingdom 1, or the Bulls are pretty much guaranteed to lose in a BrikWars game against the Crusaders. Throwing dragons, magic, and bunches of heros into the mix, though, makes it a bit more unknown.

DaveE

[Voran_the_Scholar]

Wow...thanks for all the info!

So three dragons isn't enough to throw a game out of balance, but five are? ...how does that rationale come about?

I need to play another Brikwars game again...I think I'm going through withdrawl...

EDIT:

Are you sure Voran? To fight in the lego wars we'd have to shrink you to legoman size.

I'm not so sure about that after all. Check this pic on Brickshelf.

[davee123]

So three dragons isn't enough to throw a game out of balance, but five are? ...how does that rationale come about?

Well, it mostly depends on the numbers of "other stuff" in the combat. If we were talking armies that were 1,000 minifigs strong, 5 dragons probably wouldn't be enough to throw anything out of whack. But in the rough army sizes that we've got to work with, 3 is just "really powerful", and I think 5 is just "totally nuts".

Basically, dragons are about the epitome of individual units. You want your units to be armored, fast, skillful, and powerful. Normally, in any sort of balanced game, units have some sort of weakness. Strong but slow, fast and armored, but weak. That sort of thing. But dragons have *ALL* the strengths with NONE of the weaknesses. So they're generally pretty unfair and unsportsmanlike to use in BrikWars-- at least in quantity.

Oh, and to top off the list I gave, they also have the ability to strike multiple targets at once, without even needing to be in range of melee weapons (since they can fly at a safe altitude of 7" and guarantee to ALWAYS be out of melee range, but still be able to attack).

But they aren't invincible. A troop of several archers can take one out-- you'd probably need two concurrent hits to kill a dragon, which is difficult considering the bow's usage ratings, and the fact that Dragons are moving pretty fast. A group of 6 archers could probably take out a Dragon in 1 turn, a group of 4 archers maybe has a 50/50 shot at it, and a group of 2-3 could only do it if they were lucky. And with the dozen or so archers that the Crusaders have, they could balance out 2 or 3 dragons as long as they used their archers wisely. 4 or 5 if they're lucky.

So, by my guess, yeah, 5 is enough to throw things out of whack for most other opponents, and is no longer easily predictable. 1-3 dragons is pretty good, but not really enough to guarantee some sort of easy victory with the army sizes we're talking about.

[edit]
Ok, revamped:
Assuming Dragons are flying at more than 6" per turn, and assuming normal skills for archers, and normal longbows, here's the stats on how likely it is for a group of archers to kill a single dragon in 1 turn:

1 Archer: 4.1667%
2 Archers: 9.0895%
3 Archers: 14.4987%
4 Archers: 20.1782%
5 Archers: 25.9577%
6 Archers: 31.7056%
7 Archers: 37.3218%
8 Archers: 42.7329%
9 Archers: 47.8872%
10 Archers: 52.7502%
11 Archers: 57.3014%
12 Archers: 61.5312%
13 Archers: 65.4386%
14 Archers: 69.0290%
15 Archers: 72.3125%
[/edit]

DaveE