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Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

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Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

Postby gormadoc1 » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:38 pm

I have a question, not about the set but about the Black Knights faction. Does anyone know whats the difference between Black Knight sheilds/symbol and the dragon masters sheilds/symbol ? They are a diffrent colour but have the same design.
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Re: Weekly Set Review: Sea Serpent

Postby architect » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:47 pm

Gormadoc,

In the future please start a new thread for a question like this. I will split this thread and start a new topic.

Your question about the shields is interesting. Perhaps the designers thought that the dragon shield design was fitting for the Dragon Masters theme. I find it interesting that the Dragon Masters never had a triangular shield in the new colors.

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Re: Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

Postby Fenneke-Jose » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:23 pm

I always imagine that they are like the Lion Knights/Crusaders. They also have 2 different designed shield in two colours, but the same group.

Somehow The Black Knights and The Dragon Knights have a connection. At first there were only The Black Knights. At some point the Black Knights emigrated (because of the Dragons?) and they changed the colour of the shield.
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Re: Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

Postby davee123 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:25 pm

And similarly, it's interesting to note the similarity between Forestmen and Dark Forest shields, as well as Royal Knights and Knight's Kingdom I. Between 1978 and 1992, no heraldry was repeated (for arguably 6 factions), but between 1993 and 2000, we see 6 (again, arguable) new factions, 3 with partial or completely repeated designs. Almost like it suddenly became cool to do...

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Re: Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

Postby architect » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:39 pm

davee123 wrote:And similarly, it's interesting to note the similarity between Forestmen and Dark Forest shields, as well as Royal Knights and Knight's Kingdom I. Between 1978 and 1992, no heraldry was repeated (for arguably 6 factions), but between 1993 and 2000, we see 6 (again, arguable) new factions, 3 with partial or completely repeated designs. Almost like it suddenly became cool to do...

DaveE


I would argue that the Lion/Crusader shield was inspired by the shields from 1592 Town Square:

Image Image

It is interesting that certain later faction's shields were very similar to other factions. One of the nice things about late KK2 set was the variety of new shields.

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Re: Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

Postby timber_wolf899 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:34 pm

Ben makes a good point. I hadn't thought of it, but yes triangular DM shields are glairingly abscent. How sweet it would have been!
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Re: Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

Postby davee123 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:57 pm

architect wrote:I would argue that the Lion/Crusader shield was inspired by the shields from 1592 Town Square


Ahh, true! Personally, I'll take that as a sign that the only faction to survive up through the modern age was the Crusaders :)

architect wrote:One of the nice things about late KK2 set was the variety of new shields.


Yeah, although they're a bit more stylized than I'd like, it's nice to have a good mix available. I did like Dracus' shield, and the ovoid scorpion shield, though.

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Re: Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

Postby BreadMan » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:01 pm

gormadoc1 wrote:I have a question, not about the set but about the Black Knights faction. Does anyone know whats the difference between Black Knight sheilds/symbol and the dragon masters sheilds/symbol ? They are a diffrent colour but have the same design.


I always figured it was just to save the cost of creating a new design. Much cheaper to change the ink on one printer than put together a whole new printer when it makes sense for a dragon faction to have dragon heraldry and such already existed.
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Re: Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

Postby Blueandwhite » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:57 pm

Honestly, I never liked the Dragon Master shields as they didn't match well with the figures themselves. I found it odd that the heraldry was green/red/yellow when the figures themselves retained the red/blue colour scheme of the earlier Black Knights figures. Things are more confusing when you consider that 1995's Royal Drawbridge features a Dragon Master with a Black Knight-coloured shield. These figures felt like they were at odds with their own heraldry. I didn't have the same issue with the dark forestmen if only because the line felt like a continuation/revival of the forestmen themed in spite of the modified name.
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Re: Weekly Set Review: Sea Serpent

Postby Wolfpack7 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:11 am

architect wrote:I find it interesting that the Dragon Masters never had a triangular shield in the new colors.

Ben

Well, they used the old black knights one in the 6079 dark forest fortress set. But they actually had their own triangular shield on boxes, instructions etc., but it was never created as an actual part. I allready posted it here, it looked like this:
Image
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Re: Black Knights and Dragon Masters Shields

Postby Clefspeare » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:39 am

How about these?


This one was first introduced in 1995 in sets such as Royal Knights Castle:
Image


But a few years later, in 2000, this one appeared and was used in the King Leo's Castle and other sets from the same line:
Image

Seems to me like they were just recycling the same images that they used before just to save money. I can't think of any other reason they would do it.

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Re: Weekly Set Review: Sea Serpent

Postby davee123 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:08 pm

Wolfpack7 wrote:Well, they used the old black knights one in the 6079 dark forest fortress set. But they actually had their own triangular shield on boxes, instructions etc., but it was never created as an actual part.


Huh-- the only place I see it used is on catalogs, although I don't have boxes easily accessible at the moment. Are there some instructions and boxes where this actually showed up?

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Postby Robin Hood » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:36 pm

Clefspeare wrote:Seems to me like they were just recycling the same images that they used before just to save money. I can't think of any other reason they would do it.


Maybe they figured that the designs were good looking enough to warrent further use?

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Re: Weekly Set Review: Sea Serpent

Postby Aliencat » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:36 pm

davee123 wrote:Huh-- the only place I see it used is on catalogs, although I don't have boxes easily accessible at the moment. Are there some instructions and boxes where this actually showed up?

DaveE

I'm pretty sure Wolfpack was referring to the shield on this box, but that's a regular Black Knights triangular shield, with a regular Dragon Masters ovoid shield (and arguably a Royal Knights flag on the cart, so that guy is very faction-confused ;)).
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Re: Weekly Set Review: Sea Serpent

Postby davee123 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:16 pm

Aliencat wrote:I'm pretty sure Wolfpack was referring to the shield on this box, but that's a regular Black Knights triangular shield, with a regular Dragon Masters ovoid shield


Oh, yeah, I was referring to the triangular shield image that he posted-- He had said:

"But they actually had their own triangular shield on boxes, instructions etc., but it was never created as an actual part."

Which I never remembered seeing apart from in catalogs. None of the online scans of instructions seem to have the image, and I haven't checked my boxes at home-- and perhaps he just meant catalogs and not boxes or instructions. Anyway, I was just curious where else this peculiar coat of arms might have showed up. I see it on a few catalogs:

http://media.peeron.com/catalogs/1993/medium/22/
http://media.peeron.com/catalogs/1993/poster/3/
http://media.peeron.com/catalogs/id/46/6/
http://media.peeron.com/catalogs/id/88/5/

And on the instructions, I see a variant of the same Dragon Master emblem in the corner-- although it looks like for small sets they opted to use the Black Knight version:

6020 Magic Shop, Black Knight: http://media.peeron.com/scans/6020-1/1/
6043 Dragon Defender, Black Knight: http://media.peeron.com/scans/6043-1/11/
6048 Majisto's Magic Workship, Black Knight: http://media.peeron.com/scans/6048-1/19/
6056 Dragon Wagon, Black Knight: http://media.peeron.com/scans/6056-1/15/
6076 Dark Dragon's Den, Dragon Masters: http://media.peeron.com/scans/6076-1/15/
6082 Fire Breathing Fortress, Dragon Masters: http://media.peeron.com/scans/6082-1/27/

Aliencat wrote:(and arguably a Royal Knights flag on the cart, so that guy is very faction-confused ;)).


"Oh yeah, back when I was in college, I experimented with joining all KINDS of factions."

He just needed some time to figure out who he really was.

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