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Where did dragons come from?

Discussion of topics concerning life in the middle ages around the world, including architecture, history, and warfare.

Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby wobnam » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:42 am

Think about dinosaurs and all the things we know about them - even though they haven't existed for 65 000 000 years. Then consider how unlikely it is that something like a dragon did exist only a few thousand years ago, and left NOTHING behind, and add to that the fact that the mythical dragon is by definition an impossible creature.

Fact: There is no proof that dragons have existed. None. Zero. The only thing dragons have going for them, is that it is impossible to prove that they did not exist. This is also true for ghosts, yetis, sea monsters, vampires, werewolves, pink elephants with purple spots, nuclear dolphins, waffle-powered flying saucers and the superrace of mutant ninja rats that secretly rule the earth from their office in Tokyo.
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby Ye Olde Republic » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:49 am

Oooooh, this is starting to sound like a theological discussion. IYKWIM.
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby wobnam » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 am

IKWYM, but the parallel theological discussion wouldn't be about creatures that are supposed to have actually walked the earth, so there's no reason to go there.
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Postby Robin Hood » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:46 am

Blue does make a good point though about the giant squid. The stuff of myths and legend, and yet, just very, very recently, solid proof of their existance. This isn't to necessarily say that we will be finding live dragons hiding somewhere, but the fact that such a large creature as the giant squid has only just been found certainally means there are still many things yet to be discovered.

Sea Serpent anyone?

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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby Bluesecrets » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:44 am

The Okapi was also only a legend for a long time. Such a shy and quiet beautiful animal, but they exist too. I want to think there are more examples, but I don't know how good of examples they are. I mean a dragon has some pretty wild characteristics.
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby Sir Zeppelin » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:18 am

Perhaps one reason records and stories of dragons have survived into modern times is the "big fish theory".

Caveman #1 to caveman #2

"Me see big bird. Had six foot wingspan."

"Wow," says caveman #2.

Caveman #2 to caveman #3

"Me see big bird. It had a ten foot wingspan and claws sharper than my spear."

Caveman #4 is sitting by the fire when he gets the news. Soon, caveman #5 shows up.

"Me see big bird with 15 foot wingspan. It had claws sharper than the sharpest of spears, and it screetched so loud, the mountians moved (caveman explination for a landslide)". Caveman #4 stares at the fire a little more.

"It breathed fire!" said caveman #4.

"Wow!" said caveman #5. "Me go to cave. Me make painting of this beast."


By the time the news reaches caveman #15, the beast has a 30 foot wingspan, is the size of a house, has razor sharp talons, breathes fire, and has mandibles of fury. What I'm saying is that a huge, giant bird may have existed sometime around or before the middle ages, and the story got exaggerated and became what we know as the dragon. I don't know if I'm right (probably not), but it is a thought to consider.
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby Blue Moon Knight » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:06 pm

I'm not sure which is more difficult to believe in: a giant, flying, fire breathing reptile or a prehistoric homo-sapien who, though he only speaks English in broken sentences, has the ability to estimate a bird's wingspan. :lol:
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby dyntar » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:35 pm

ok.. So if the flying, bat wing fire breathing dragons did just happen to exist.. are they actually related to the Asian dragons? The Asian ones don't breath fire or even have wings.. and they can fly.

[Although I'll go with the Terry Pratchett Discworld novel explanation.. Dragons only exist if you believe in them]
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby wobnam » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:29 am

I just realized something that has made me a believer. Isn't it obvious? Asian dragons did exist. If you look at one of them, you can easily see how much it resembles a caterpillar. Asian dragons were dragons in larval form! Caterpillars can't fly - but they often fall off leaves, which gives the illusion of flight - this explains why people thought the asian dragon could fly.
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby Bluesecrets » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:12 am

I just realized something that has made me a believer. Isn't it obvious? Asian dragons did exist. If you look at one of them, you can easily see how much it resembles a caterpillar. Asian dragons were dragons in larval form! Caterpillars can't fly - but they often fall off leaves, which gives the illusion of flight - this explains why people thought the asian dragon could fly.


:raiseone: Oh really now?

I'm not so sure I can buy into that one. Caterpillars are quite small. A baby butterfly, an animal that small birds eat are dragons? I can't even pretend that I've even studied Asian dragons, so sure, I'll consider your theory. But..but..they are so tiny...why would anyone ever go to fight one when you can just step on it and squish it?
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby Ye Olde Republic » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:36 pm

Sure. And there really was a sword jammed into an anvil that only one man could possibly pull from said anvil. Oh, yeah and that one man just happened to be someone that the people would simply accept as their king because he could perform such an act.
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby wobnam » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:09 pm

Bluesecrets wrote:why would anyone ever go to fight one when you can just step on it and squish it?

They eat crops, which is why the humans fought them. They were a lot bigger back then, you can easily understand this if you compare a butterfly to a dragon. I'm guessing the use of pesticide is what have caused them to evolve into something so small, as smaller creatures are a lot harder to hit with spray.
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby Bluesecrets » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:24 pm

They eat crops, which is why the humans fought them. They were a lot bigger back then, you can easily understand this if you compare a butterfly to a dragon. I'm guessing the use of pesticide is what have caused them to evolve into something so small, as smaller creatures are a lot harder to hit with spray.


A lot bigger? Were leaves that much bigger so that they could eat enough to survive?

I keep thinking if this was true, then the Wooly Bears
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that people use to predict weather with, well if he's a dragon...then some people are still believing that they have the power to decide about winter, which IS a folk tale, or an old wives tale. So...that could in fact prove the existence of dragons...or maybe not. I think I'm now lost in the confusion of this discussion.
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby plums_deify » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:43 am

While I'll be the first to admit that logic flew out of this thread ages ago, Wobbie...seriously. Your argument is based on a fuzzy-wuzzy caterpillar?

HA!

No. No seriously. While caterpillars might be larvae of other mythological creatures, dragons are most certainly not one of them. (Caterpillars, in my experience, grow up to be nothing more than fuzzy-wuzzy chimeras. Dun wanna piss off one of them for sure.) Your typical westernized Dragon, of course, evolved to adapt to certain terrain, flights, etc. Often, some of them were land-locked, so flying was a highly convenient way of getting from point A to point B. Wings are useful in getting over the Alps, to be sure.

The dragons in the eastern countries (mainland China notwithstanding) certainly had a great deal more water to contend with. Their shape appeals to that. Besides...different aesthetic qualities to each species. Their magic being strong enough to help dictate that, they simply look different. That's okay.

And what self-respecting dragon wants to be confused with it's cousins?
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Re: Where did dragons come from?

Postby wobnam » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:19 pm

plums_deify wrote:Caterpillars, in my experience, grow up to be nothing more than fuzzy-wuzzy chimeras.

Are you basing the rest of your post on your experience as well?
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