Classic-Castle.com


The source for all your LEGO Castle needs!

What type of helmet is this?

Discussion of topics concerning life in the middle ages around the world, including architecture, history, and warfare.

What type of helmet is this?

Postby Vycoul22 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:57 am

Hello all, I've been wondering what kind of helmet this is, and what kind of soldier would wear it? Image
TLG seems to like to put it on archers but wouldn't the brim block the archers vision?
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people may appear bright until they open their mouths.
Vycoul22
Villein
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:30 pm
Location: N.Y.C.

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby Ye Olde Republic » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:07 am

Hi, we've long guessed that it is intended to be a Kettle-helm with a chain mail hood attached. Probably infantry types (footmen) wore it most because the wide brim was good for deflecting projectiles coming in from higher angles away from the soldiers head and neck. Hope that helps.
Trevor

Trust me, I think I'm funnier than you do.
Why do I have to add the word "minifig" to my spell checker every time I use it?!

flickr
My blog
User avatar
Ye Olde Republic
Marquis of Brique
Marquis of Brique
 
Posts: 1210
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:50 am
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby elwurmogrande » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:38 am

Some more info on the kettle-helm. It was used in Europe from the 12th to the late 15th century and was indeed very popular among all different kinds of men-at-arms from foot-soldiers to horse-soldiers. Even knights used them once in a while as they offered good protection and breathing was much easier in comparison to the great helm. It was highly popular in Palestine due to the hot climate.

There are basically two types, sometimes called an English and German version. The English version is round, like the LEGO version, while the German type is more angled and flat on top. Actually both names are silly, as both types were used throughout Europe.

"German" type:
http://der-guertler.de/images/macj_helm.gif

Here you can find several different types of helmets, including the different kettle-helmets and the great helm.
http://www.manesse.de/BildSuche.php?id=358&s=Helm&a=erg&
User avatar
elwurmogrande
Villein
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:24 pm
Location: Germany

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby Heir of Black Falcon » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:44 pm

You can find these used into the 16th, especially in Britain, Norway, Sweden, Denmary, Spain and Eastern Europe. They develop into the morion and cabasset helmets of the 16th-late17th/early 18th. These two helmet types becoming two of the most common for infantry and light cavalry aside the burgonet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morion_(helmet)

They were often used for infantry as the full brim was especially good at deflecting downward blows away from the head and shoulders. As Elwurmo said though they find use elsewhere. On the Hastings effigy of 1347 one of the lords shown as weepers has one one.

Heir
There ain't nothin' girlie about a tunic...
User avatar
Heir of Black Falcon
Justiciar
 
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:37 pm
Location: Utah (I'm baaaack)

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby elwurmogrande » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:26 pm

I have forgotten something. The kettle-helmet is the forerunner of the sallet in central Europe of the 15th and early 16th century. Now that would be a nice helmet for the future. Maybe one day Lego, Brickforge or Little Armory might design one, although the Dragon Master's helmet is somehow similar.

http://www.minifigs.net/webpage/images/castle/dragon_kights/Dragon_Master_red.jpg
http://www.minifigs.net/webpage/images/castle/dragon_kights/Dragon_Master_red_2.jpg

Pics:
http://houseasgard.com/asgardpic/armorh/paintedsallet1.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Helm_DSC02194.JPG

In Duerer's famous print Ritter, Tod und Teufel (Knight, Death and the Devil) of 1513, he shows this great helmet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Duerer_-_Ritter,_Tod_und_Teufel_(Der_Reuther).jpg

Here are some more pics
http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/illuman/images/full_resolution/13_03.jpg
http://www.burgenseite.com/faschen/gozzoburg_ritter_3.jpg
Last edited by elwurmogrande on Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
elwurmogrande
Villein
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:24 pm
Location: Germany

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby Frank_Lloyd_Knight » Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:20 pm

Forgive me if I'm going off on a tangent, but while I see so many knowledgable people replyng, I thought I might also ask if anyone has ever figured out where TLG got the inspiration for this helmet...
Image
I've seen plenty of depictions of similar helmets in medieval art, but never one with a neck guard like this.
Frank_Lloyd_Knight
Journeyman
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:53 am
Location: Corpus Christi

Postby Robin Hood » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:21 pm

Going out on a limb here, but I rather think the neck guard is intended to be chain mail. For protection of the neck, while still allowing freedom of movement. But that is just my guess, based on the design. I have no actual facts to back that up. I'm sure other members can enlighten us further on this.

Dan :wink:
I build, therefore I am.

Brave words coming from a guy called grapenuts.
User avatar
Robin Hood
Knight Templar
Knight Templar
 
Posts: 2084
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 2:35 am
Location: An empty room.....somewhere.

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby elwurmogrande » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:52 pm

No problem. :D

It's a cape of chainmail and it isn't well done.
http://www.bueker-gmbh.de/pics/l/alias2/R56-kettenhaube-aus-duraluminium.jpg
http://www.thing-schmiede.de/neue%20Thing%20Schmiede/images/Spangenhelm%20und%20Kettenhaube.jpg

The backs of the "bullet helmet" and the kettle helmet are better designed.

It was developed out of the early medieval "spangenhelm"
http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/6 ... arland.jpg

During the Middle Ages many different types existed. With and without nasal, with a flat or round top, etc. It was in use from the 9th century to the 13th century.
http://www.manesse.de/manesse/img/kfb/ausschnitte/Aus-kfb041-Nasalhelm320-542-400-599.jpg
http://www.historiavivens1300.at/helme/helm-10.jpg
http://www.burgenseite.com/faschen/vezeley_ritter_071.jpg
http://www.burgenseite.com/faschen/louvre_ritter_0149.jpg

It evolved into the early type of the great helmet
http://astor-versand.eshop.t-online.de/WebRoot/Store6/Shops/Shop10643/48C7/A305/B036/61D6/07F8/AC14/500A/A525/1723083901a.jpg
another helmet I would like to see as a LEGO version ;)
User avatar
elwurmogrande
Villein
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:24 pm
Location: Germany

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby evilnailman » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:00 pm

There's quite a similar neckguard on the Sutton Hoo helmet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sutto ... RobRoy.jpg

Although the noseguard is clearly different.

Matt
User avatar
evilnailman
Peasant
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:51 am
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby Heir of Black Falcon » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:43 pm

I always had a hard time with that one. It looks like a simple spangen helm but I could never tell if they wanted it to be a mail aventail or solid plate. The lower half sort of reminds me of some eastern european, byzantine, or steppe helmets I have seen. Of course the Sutton Hoo helmet idea might work as well... I had never thought of it before.

Heir
There ain't nothin' girlie about a tunic...
User avatar
Heir of Black Falcon
Justiciar
 
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:37 pm
Location: Utah (I'm baaaack)

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby Frank_Lloyd_Knight » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:08 pm

evilnailman wrote:There's quite a similar neckguard on the Sutton Hoo helmet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sutto ... RobRoy.jpg

Although the noseguard is clearly different.

Matt

Out of all the times I've seen pictures of the Sutton Hoo helmet, I've never noticed that it had a neck guard. Thanks for pointing that out.
Frank_Lloyd_Knight
Journeyman
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:53 am
Location: Corpus Christi

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby Vycoul22 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:17 pm

:shock: Wow Thanks everyone! You answered my questions and so much more!
I learned as much in 10 posts as I would expect from a hour long documentary entitled "History of The Helmet"! Thanks everyone!
Also, I too would love to see this helmet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Helm_DSC02194.JPG in Lego form.
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people may appear bright until they open their mouths.
Vycoul22
Villein
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:30 pm
Location: N.Y.C.

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby Heir of Black Falcon » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:42 am

Me too!

There are loads of cool things TLC could make... I'd love a sallet and bascinet!

Heir
There ain't nothin' girlie about a tunic...
User avatar
Heir of Black Falcon
Justiciar
 
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:37 pm
Location: Utah (I'm baaaack)

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby TheFlarbar » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:24 pm

Heir of Black Falcon wrote:You can find these used into the 16th, especially in Britain, Norway, Sweden, Denmary, Spain and Eastern Europe. They develop into the morion and cabasset helmets of the 16th-late17th/early 18th. These two helmet types becoming two of the most common for infantry and light cavalry aside the burgonet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morion_(helmet)

They were often used for infantry as the full brim was especially good at deflecting downward blows away from the head and shoulders. As Elwurmo said though they find use elsewhere. On the Hastings effigy of 1347 one of the lords shown as weepers has one one.

Heir


I don't know, Wikipedia isn't always right. Check other sources and see what information they have.
User avatar
TheFlarbar
Gong Farmer
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:55 am
Location: in my hideout

Re: What type of helmet is this?

Postby JoshWedin » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:23 pm

TheFlarbar wrote:
I don't know, Wikipedia isn't always right. Check other sources and see what information they have.


Do you have reason to doubt the information? Of just questioning it because Wikipedia was used as a source?

Josh
AFOL and his money are easily parted.

Image The Brothers Brick
User avatar
JoshWedin
Chevalier de Chèvre
Chevalier de Chèvre
 
Posts: 5642
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:35 pm
Location: Pondering what you are pondering

Next

Return to Medieval Life

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests