The Decline of Lego Castle?

[J_MAN]

My opinion is that the Castle theme started to decline with the Fright Knights and didn't recover until the arrival of the Crownies.

[ezehogan]

It has been a long time since I have posted but I feel compelled to voice my opinion on this topic.

For me particularly the decline of castle, and LEGO as a whole was the 1997 lineup. I was always a castle/space/pirates guy. I pretty much loved all of these lines until 1997 rolled around. I will never forget the day I got home from school in the fall of 1996 and checked the mail to find the newest LEGO catalog featuring the 1997 lineup. The feeling of dissapointment was instant and overwhelming.

The first sets I looked at were castle as it has always been my primary line. Although not many new sets were released in 1996 I liked the Dark Forest theme and was interested in seeing new additions. I also was a fan of the Royal Knights and was hoping for some newer sets. Instead I was greeted with the Fright Knights. I was horrified at what I saw, and it was not because they did their job as a "scary" theme but rather at the poor design of the sets. A rock as a gate? Terrible. Castle died for me.

Space was a fallback line that I usually liked although it took a hit with the Exploriens. Flipping to the space pages I was greeted by the UFO theme. I had zero interest in this. Space died for me too.

Pirates has always been a great line. Although the Armada was less interesting to me than the Imperials, it was still a worthy addition to the Pirates lineup and I assumed we would see an Armada land fort. I was mistaken. Instead Lego rolled out a few half-baked watered down Pirates sets. Pirates was dead now as well.

The failure of the 1997 lineup sent me into a dark age that I did not recover from until the Star Wars line debuted. Even then, Star Wars sets were the only Lego sets I purchased as the other themes looked progressively worse to me. It was not until the Medieval Marketplace Villiage that I think Castle started making a comeback. All of the castle sets before then (sans the Blacksmith shop) were to fanciful and "toyish" for my tastes.

Now, in retrospect I think the castle line can trace its downfall to the 6081 King's Mountain Fortress (ironically my first big castle set). The raised baseplate began a gradual decline in quality although it was not immediately apparent at the time and Lego still maintained high standards. In fact, 1992 was a real high point for castle in most respects (specifically the classic 6086 Dungeon Master's castle). Still, the baseplate was introduced and it would change everything.

I mean no disrespect to some of the younger Lego enthusiasts here but I feel bad for those who had to grow up with the post 1997 Castle sets. Only now do I think that the Lego castle line has really returned to glory. In fact, looking at things objectively I think the Kingdoms lineup so far is one of the strongest castle lineups Lego has pumped out. The designs are pretty well thought out, not too fanciful, still very playable, and the detail is excellent. In fact, I think the Kingdoms line is becoming one of my favorite castle lines. Hopefully it lasts for a few years like the earlier castle factions.

[Sir Kohran]

Is it right to call it a decline, or was it just a progression? Lego Castle began in the late 70s, and since then the line has changed just as the world around it has changed.

It's clear that the 90s sets began the shift in focus from 'models' to 'playsets', and whilst I do like a lot of sets from that period it's clear that they were becoming increasingly gimmicky and cartoonish (the Fright Knights being the obvious example). Also, the high turnover of themes suggests the line was no longer selling like it did in the days of the Lion Knights and Black Falcons. Whether this was because the designers were out of touch with what a more modern generation of buyers wanted or because the sets were inherently poor is a matter of opinion. KKI obviously tried to succeed where the 90s themes had failed, but it borrowed so much from them that it couldn't avoid going the same way as them too. After such an extensive string of unsuccessful themes it's hardly surprising Castle slipped away for a few years.

I seem to be the only one with any affection for KKII. I certainly wouldn't argue it was amazing, but if nothing else, it brought back euro armour after an absence of over ten years, and proved that some form of Castle could be successful after its quiet demise in 1998 and failed restart in 2000. Also, its second and third years did have some very well-designed sets, and I think it's unfortunate that these have been totally forgotten and the line is known (and bashed) exclusively for the 'jellybeans'. The Vikings theme had some fantastic minifig sets, but mixing them with hulking Bionicle techno-looking creatures was a failed experiment in my eyes, the latter seemed totally out of place with the former.

The theme that began in 2007 was a mixed bag for a similar reason that the Vikings theme was. On the one hand, the traditional Castle minifig sets were great (if a little bland), but the fantasy content wasn't to my liking - the sets were bloated with far too many skeletons and orcs, who were all complete clones of each other. To this day, I've found no use for the dozens of identical heads and oversized weapons they flooded my collection with.

I haven't paid too much attention to the Kingdoms theme but it does seem to recapture the 80s style quite well. It'll be interesting to see where Castle heads next.

[JoshWedin]

I surprised that some people are lumping Knight's Kingdom I and II together. I have always liked KKI and it is really good compared to KKII. The Bulls are actually one of my favorite 'evil' factions. At the time, Knight's Kingdom was considered a step in the right direction after Fright Knights, though it did take some flak for the set designs.

Josh

[Heir of Black Falcon]

I was not collecting during KKI but wish I had. I like the minifigs and most of the sets were fine. I really wish I had a few bull knights but such is life. The Big castle was interesting but the super large raised baseplate really limits what you can and cannot do with it.

KKII was, to me, a huge disaster in many respects. I cannot imagine what TLC was thinking personally with most of the good faction. If the 2007 line had come out instead I would have likely been out of my dark age sooner. As I started back in 2006 with the vikings (which I thought were just awesome) the only KKII sets I own were gifts as I would never have bought them unless they were 50% off or more. The multi-colored knights would have been better if they had used darker shades of the colors, especially the baby blue Jayko..... yuck. What kind of person would do such a heinous thing. The only Lego minifigs/parts I am willing to paint over, abominable. Set design was not super either with only a few sets that to me looked decent. To much like playsets for 6-8 year olds. The last year of KKII was not so bad with some better colors coming in and more interesting sets but sadly I was so afraid of KKII by that time so I never gave them the time of day until the newer Crownie and Skellie line had come out and by then they were selling for more than I was willing to pay at BL which was a shame.

That said painting Lego minifigs has given me some cool custom factions so I should be grateful for KKII. I really liked the different styles of visors for variety and some of the colors do have uses as they come…. Not the baby blue one though… my eyes will forever weep for who ever came up with the idea to use that color in a castle set. And I do love the scorpion faction that came with KKII so a bit of a mixed blessing.

Heir

[ezehogan]

I suppose the subject of "decline" is a matter of personal opinion and tastes. I am more interested in sets that try to capture a more realistic feel than a "playset" or extreme "fantasy" feel. The more outlandish the sets became, the more turned off I was by them.

Yes the Forestmen are mostly fantasy but the concept of bandits living in the forest was not far fetched and their buildings and hideouts did not seem too fanciful. On the other hand the Fright Knight's have no foothold in reality and the buildings were poor to boot. High towers with no substance and giant rocks used as gates scared me into a darkage.

As for lumping KKI and KKII together, I don't think anyone is saying they are completely similar but rather that the set designs for each theme was equally poor. I was excited to hear that Lego was going to restart the castle theme with KKI.... until I saw the sets. I challenge anyone to show me an actual castle or fortress with huge gaps in the walls and gates that lift up beyond the actual building itself in real life. The only castle you will find with huge gaps in the walls is one that has been destroyed by the ravages of time, not by design.

Perhaps the KKI figures weren't bad but the actual sets were a far cry from the earlier sets for me. I just wasn't interested in a huge raised baseplate with a few towers on it and nothing connecting those towers. As a result, the entire line was a pass for me. KKII had poor minifigs and terrible sets.

The 2007 restart was better but still not quite to my liking. Take the King's Castle Siege as an example. The front of the set looks decent to me, but the back is a mishmash of pieces with no clear intelligent design. What's with that strange tower sticking out of the left side? Who would cross that narrow "bridge" to the tower on the right? My assessment of this set is that it is unbalanced and just looks "off". Even the front isn't without faults. Why is the gate lifting above the front gate wall?

Fortunately Lego learned from these mistakes and released the King's Castle which eliminates these issues. I hope that the Kingdoms line continues on the path it has set so far and does not regress.

[JPinoy]

LEGO Castle is not in decline. The Fantasy Era and Kingdoms lines are very much a throw back to the golden age of Castle in terms of castle design (actual bricks again, instead of large panel pieces), and even faction design as is the case with the Blue Crown Knights, Red Lion Knights, and Green Dragon Knights.

[Blueandwhite]

I'll echo those who feel that LEGO castle started to decline in the mid 1990s with the Royal Knights and the Dungeon Masters. I'm not going to say that these lines were horrible, but in my opinion they were a serious step backwards when compared to sets like 6074, 6085 and 6086. Still, the transition between the Royal Knights and the Fright Knights was a far more dramatic turn for the worse. Of course, this wasn't all that surprising as juniorization seemed to be something of a trend across all of LEGO's product lines at that point. Large elements and colour-coded building really sucked the fun out of the LEGO brand. This really dragged on for some time. While KKI certainly had some of the nicest figures for its time, the sets themselves were still horribly simple. The idea of a gatehouse or a working drawbridge seemed to be left far in LEGO's past. KKII carried forward the many shortcomings of KKI and added an odd assortment of colourful figures with space helmets that felt out of place with any earlier castle line. Honestly, there were a few years there where I thought the castle theme was toast.

Fortunately we saw a dramatic shift with the introduction of the Fantasy era. After the odd decisions made durring KKII seeing the traditional knights of the Castle line was a breath of fresh air. On top of that, for folks who had long wished for fantasy fare we finally were given sets with dwarves and trolls. With the new Castle line the set design was still something of a mixed bag but most of the sets were really quite appealing. Since then things have only continued to improve. Two advent calenders, the MMV, excellent sets like the Dwarf Mine and Troll Battle Wheel and two new human factions with the Kingdoms line have really revived the castle theme. In all honesty I feel that we've been privy to some of the best castle sets in LEGO history over the past four years. While the decline of the castle theme was a common topic of conversation in the early 2000s, it's not a conversation you see come up very much these days. We've had a wonderful run of amazing sets over the past few years that the dark ages of LEGO castle seems all but forgotten.

[sidewinderl]

Could've sworn I posted something here already...oh well...

The quality of set design declined with FK and KK1...but those sets weren't without their good points (although your fondness for FK may depend on how you feel about the bat helms...I love 'em, personally). KK2, though...Lego's own version of the "dark age". I just don't have anything good to say about KK2 (not even the later stuff). The biggest impact it had (in my area at least) is that Wal-Marts stopped carrying Castle. My Wal-Mart even stopped carrying Lego entirely for a little while...and instead sold that other stuff. 07 and Kingdoms are fantastic, but they still don't carry them...I'll feel a little better about the future of Castle when they do.

Didn't help that the KK2 era spelled the end of Lego at the local themepark (not KK2's fault, but still)...the Lego stuff was the main reason I ever wanted to go there. I even bought my one and only KK2 set from there...thought it was a horrible joke, but tried to like it...just couldn't do it, though.

[divonic]

The theme that began in 2007 was a mixed bag for a similar reason that the Vikings theme was. On the one hand, the traditional Castle minifig sets were great (if a little bland), but the fantasy content wasn't to my liking - the sets were bloated with far too many skeletons and orcs, who were all complete clones of each other. To this day, I've found no use for the dozens of identical heads and oversized weapons they flooded my collection with.

While I really like the fantasy line and my current favorite faction is the orcs/trolls, I had to customize them to make them what I like. it would have been nice if there were more than just three orc faces (two of which are only available in a $100 set) I also didn't like the orc helmet, weapon and armor design and color. What made the theme work for me was brickforge. and a foray into custom designed face and torso stickers.

I surprised that some people are lumping Knight's Kingdom I and II together. I have always liked KKI and it is really good compared to KKII. The Bulls are actually one of my favorite 'evil' factions. At the time, Knight's Kingdom was considered a step in the right direction after Fright Knights, though it did take some flak for the set designs.

Knight's kingdom I was actually pretty good but I think it has been tainted by the Knight's Kindgon name. I think KKII should probablly be broken into two parts. The Jelly beans fighting the scorpions were 2004 and 2005. IMO the sets in 2006 those should be KKIII. (sets like 8821-1: Rogue Knight Battleship) where vast improvements over the jelly bean, (though) the sets did feel a little thrown together at the last minute. That being said I liked the KKII bad guys (scorpion) minifig design. but it wasn't untill fantasy era that I think things really imporved.

It seems to me that a good minifig design can help make less well designed sets better overall. BUT at the beginning KKII had both poor sets design and overall poor minifigs. IMO the worst set/minifig designs were fright kinghts and KKII. (and I like a few of the FK minifigs but the witch and the fright lord, or whatever he was called, were bad. you can only use so many of those faces and witch torso)

[Tower of Iron Will]

The Wal-Marts that I live near and have lived near never had any Castle sets except for one Super Wal-Mart in northern California The two Wal-Marts I live near now have a decent selection of other LEGO but no Castle sets. They even have some of the Ninjago sets. The Target near me seems to always have a decent selection of Castle sets thankfully as the one TRU was closed down. Perhaps KKII lower sales (IMO) prompted Wal-Mart not to order Castle sets? Just a guess.

I don't think this means that Castle is in decline, just stores like Wal-Mart decided for whatever reason not to carry them, which now is their loss. Ever since 2007, Castle has been unstoppable.
-Tower

[Alex the Great]

Castle has always been my favourite theme, and since I was born in 1995 I got cheaped out. The Fright Knights didn't appeal to me and so I collected Harry Potter when they still had yellow heads. When the KKII was out it didn't impress me and I left Lego entirely. I only got back into LEGO two years ago and missed most of the Fantasy line and wished I didn't. The decline of the Castle started with Fright Knights for me, but LEGO castle is definately getting better.

[Artisan]

I suppose the subject of "decline" is a matter of personal opinion and tastes. I am more interested in sets that try to capture a more realistic feel than a "playset" or extreme "fantasy" feel. The more outlandish the sets became, the more turned off I was by them.

Yes the Forestmen are mostly fantasy but the concept of bandits living in the forest was not far fetched and their buildings and hideouts did not seem too fanciful. On the other hand the Fright Knight's have no foothold in reality and the buildings were poor to boot. High towers with no substance and giant rocks used as gates scared me into a darkage.

I couldn't agree with you more! This was almost exactly how I was going to start my statement as well. I've always been a huge fan of Lego castle sets since I was a kid. I loved the older castle sets, have both the Black Falcon Fortress and the Black Monarch's Castle among many of the smaller sets. My favorite faction has always been Forestmen. I used the stare at the catalogs that came with the set showing the other sets in the series especially enjoying how Lego designed the scenes showcasing them all. Then Robin Hood Prince of Thieves came out and my young, impressionable mind kept that love going to new heights. What really made it for me back then was that while they weren't historically accurate, they were realistic enough to actually feel like I was living in a medieval age when I played with them in my youth.

Then came the dragons... and my dark ages hit right around the time the Dragon Knights sets started to roll out. For me, and coming from my own experience, that started the decline for the castle series since it started to become more into the fantasy realm and the realism of the golden age was lost for me. By the time Fright Knights were around, I didn't even know any of the new sets from then on. Since I was well into my dark ages for some time, I don't think I'll comment on the sets like KKI and KKII other than seeing them in stores in passing and not liking the designs much. Although, I did pick up Vladek's Dark Fortress, only cause it was on sale at Target for half on a black Friday, but it didn't have the same feel as sets of old that I remembered so fondly. I certainly didn't care for the colorful knights at all, as well as the unrealistic flaming catapults that really aim more to serve an 8 yr old's interactivity/playability than being anything realistic.

That all changed with Medieval Market Village. It was love at first sight, and suddenly I was 10 years old again studying every detail on the box. That pulled me out of my dark ages in an instant and into the Kingdoms line which I just had to get everything of. The realism was back for the most part. Finally we had people in a civilized setting. No more dragons, Orcs, and whatevers (hopefully) and the new (thankfully human) factions reminded me of the old sets with great minifig designs that look realistic and have a nice variety.

The only draw back that I've seen with the new sets lately is on the castle walls where stickers need to be applied instead of being printed on, other than that I love the king's castle! The only thing they need now enter a new Golden era in my eyes is the addition of modular civilian castle sets, such as a new guarded in, blacksmith shop and armor shop, as in the old sets, that can be incorporated into the castle walls which would further expand upon the Kings Castle. I would have loved to see that on the smaller outpost attack set currently on sale. While it works perfectly fine as a stand alone set, if it was able to be added to the Kings Castle as a modular unit, it could have taken it to new heights.

So while most of the folks agree that the decline was from the Fright Knights through KKII for various reasons, I do see the sets coming back in a big way that's very reminiscent of and maybe even be a new golden era. I just hope that Lego keeps playing their cards right in the upcoming sets in the series. Oh and a new Forestmen revamp along the lines of the current sets, that actually live in a forest setting, would be awesome (with bows from that elf minifig from series 3!)

[Jojo]

Hello!


Surprisingly I felt the first decline already in 1990, not knowing then what was to come. While I liked some of the then new elements (large castle doors, the "euro armour" as you like to call it) the castle buildings of that year just weren't that great. King's Mountain Fortress 6081 looked like a ruin right away and was lacking both minifigs and bricks compared to its predecessor 6080. Also the black gate for the Black Monarch's Castle, Knight's Stronghold 6059, was equally weak in my opinion. However, that was remedied with the uberly great Black Knight's Castle 6086 the next year, which in fact kept me from falling into my dark ages.

The following year, however, the Dragon Masters came into the Castle world and I would have fallen into my dark ages anyway, only the Skulls Eye Shooner 6286 rescued me. The Dragon Masters cleanly cut the old Castle world off, only two imprisoned Wolfmen survived. The following years I got the feeling that I was growing older while Lego was growing younger and younger, with each year's new Castle releases becoming more and more childish and ridiculous, with the Fright Knights as this development's unholy final point.
In retrospective, though, I have to admit that Lego's more fantasyesque and fairytaleish approach on the Castle theme wasn't that farfetched. It just wasn't what I was used the theme to be, and, more importantly, the buildings got worse, less sturdy, more open, with fewer bricks and more large prefab parts.

The year 2000 brought as Knights' Kingdom, a peculiar line. In principle lovely minifigures roamed vastly juniorized buildings. And a new trend was established: Individualized minifigures. There was this king that got a name, there were two good knights and three bad robbers, all identified by names. Their faces were highly detailed (which was good) but at the same time looked all the same. With less detailed faces it didn't matter that they all looked the same, but now these faces represented actually individual characters. Not good.

Knights' Kingdom Vol. 2 was a slap in the face. It didn't help much that Lego also changed the basic colours grey, dark grey and brown. KK2 was a ridiculous and failed attempt to transfer Lego castle into a He-Man world. Sure, the second and third year brought better sets, but still the buidlings really weren't great and the war machines had a bulky and ugly feeling to them. In any case, KK2 was, as of now, the trough. We are through.

With "Castle" and now "Kingdoms" it's really going upwards, while I could live without the silly skeletons from the Castle line. Lego also does good on the minifigs. Now they combine individual faces with different torsos, legs and helmets, which leads to individual figures that still are generic enough to not feel like clones.


Bye
Jojo

[ezehogan]

Surprisingly I felt the first decline already in 1990, not knowing then what was to come.

I concur with this although I was too young at the time to know any better. I was just getting into Lego in 1990. For me the sets from 1990 - 1992 were great. Even today sets like Sea Serpent, Black Knight's Castle, Wolfpack Renegades, and Forestmen's Crossing are classics in my eyes so the decline was only gradual. As an adult looking back however I now see that the sets from 1990 on were more hit and miss than the earlier sets in the series.

In 1993 there was certainly a dropoff with the Dragon Masters. The minifigures and sets took a slide but I still *like* most of the sets. They just aren't as high quality as previous years.

Although the Royal Knight's aren't generally held in high regard here, I liked and still do like the sets. The emblem was too much of a cartoon but I think the Royal Knight's Castle and the King's Carriage were good sets. On top of that we finally got a king! Still, the 6090 was not as good a castle as the previous entries and the figures were again generally lacking.

1996 and Dark Forest were a bust. At the time I was excited about the return of the Forestmen but even as a youngster I could tell the sets were a far cry from the first Forestmen line.

Then 1997 came and the bottom fell out.

Anyway as stated earlier the subject of "decline" is actually multi-faceted as the sets didn't go from excellent to poor in a single year. In my opinion it was a steady decline that was not readily apparent until the bottom dropped out completely with the Fright Knight's. So although the Fright Knight's were, for me, the point of decline, it can be traced to the 6081 King's Mountain Fortress way back in 1990 and the use of the raised base plate.