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KK2: Realistic?

Discussion of topics concerning life in the middle ages around the world, including architecture, history, and warfare.

Postby Daimyo » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:48 pm

Yes, Freak, I've been trying for a long, long time to tell everyone this. Though not utterly correct, these Bioniknights are very similair to the German Landsknechte, especially the outlandish colors. In real life, the Landsknechte wore these colors and mixed them with a whole lot else. :wink: . The swords are similair to the landsknechte "Klat Zabre" and others.
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Postby TwoTonic Knight » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:14 pm

Daimyo wrote:Yes, Freak, I've been trying for a long, long time to tell everyone this. Though not utterly correct, these Bioniknights are very similair to the German Landsknechte, especially the outlandish colors. In real life, the Landsknechte wore these colors and mixed them with a whole lot else. :wink: . The swords are similair to the landsknechte "Klat Zabre" and others.


Perhaps I'm not familiar with the particular era of the Landsknechtes you are refering to, but from everything I have seen on them, the Jellybean Knights don't look in the slightest like a puffed-and-slashed Landsknechte. The only vague similiarity is their use of bright colors, and even that really isn't the same since the KK2 Knights are monochromatic.
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Postby Jojo » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:49 pm

Hello!

Daimyo wrote:Yes, Freak, I've been trying for a long, long time to tell everyone this. Though not utterly correct, these Bioniknights are very similair to the German Landsknechte, especially the outlandish colors. In real life, the Landsknechte wore these colors and mixed them with a whole lot else. :wink: . The swords are similair to the landsknechte "Klat Zabre" and others.

Who on earth is (or was, since he is probably dead and decayed) Klat Zabre?
And I don't find much similarity to any lansquenets that I've seen pictures of. The era of the Landsknechte/lansquenets was from around the 16th to the 17th century, not exactly the middle of the Middle Ages anymore. I've something like this in mind rather than armoured knights when hearing "Landsknecht" (pic = link):

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Postby Stephen » Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:01 am

For most of the Middle Ages, knights wore chainmail and open faced helmets. Closed helmets were starting to be common during the Crusades, but chainmail was the usual body armor. You can't paint chainmail. Knights wore surcoats over their mail, and carried painted sheilds. I supposed the overcoats and sheilds could just about any color that went with their Coat of Arms.

Full body plate armor didn't show up until the very end of the Middle Ages. And it continued to be used in tournaments long after. (King Henry II of France was killed in a jousting accident in 1559.)

Painted and decorated armor would be appropriate in a tournament, which is just for show anyway, but I can't imagine a soldier spending the money. To a soldier, they're tools of the trade, and who decorates their tools?

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Postby doctorsparkles » Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:24 am

Stephen wrote:For most of the Middle Ages, knights wore chainmail and open faced helmets. Closed helmets were starting to be common during the Crusades, but chainmail was the usual body armor. You can't paint chainmail. Knights wore surcoats over their mail, and carried painted sheilds. I supposed the overcoats and sheilds could just about any color that went with their Coat of Arms.

Full body plate armor didn't show up until the very end of the Middle Ages. And it continued to be used in tournaments long after. (King Henry II of France was killed in a jousting accident in 1559.)

Painted and decorated armor would be appropriate in a tournament, which is just for show anyway, but I can't imagine a soldier spending the money. To a soldier, they're tools of the trade, and who decorates their tools?

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Painted chainmail? No, probably not. However, mail can be (and was) blackened, which not only looked cool but (much like blueing of plate armor) provided protection against rust. Mail could also be plated with another metal, though I imagine this would be expensive and incredibly time consuming.
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Postby Blasterman » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:40 pm

To a soldier, they're tools of the trade, and who decorates their tools?


Tell that to the French, who liked to wear 2 foot plumes, or
crests, to make themselves look taller on the battlefield -
and more intimidating so they thought.

The English archers at Agincourt(1415) didn't buy it.

But to answer the KK2 question - NO.
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Realism and Fantasy can Combine

Postby SirBardatheBuilder » Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:54 am

For all you who give KK2 a hard time, it is fantasy, but partially inspired by reality. And its not for AFOLs, more for children. Like myself.
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Re: Realism and Fantasy can Combine

Postby Emperor James » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:25 am

SirBardatheBuilder wrote:For all you who give KK2 a hard time, it is fantasy, but partially inspired by reality. And its not for AFOLs, more for children. Like myself.


But you see, people at this site are AFOL's, generally, although there are a few children, such as myself. KK2 is making a mockery of Castle, and is completely useless as far as pieces goes. Check out the old castles here: http://news.lugnet.com/castle/sets
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Postby jwcbigdog » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:43 pm

I don't think that there is much reality at all in the KK2 line. The old castles at least resembled something you could find in history books, along with the minifigs. This new line is just a total sham. It is not even close to historically accurate, aside from the fact that at one time knights lived.

I realize that it is fantasy, an I don't think that TLC should be putting out castles with the painstaking historic detail like Dr. Carney, but I do think that toy companies everywhere need to realize what impact they have on kids. This generation of kids is going to think that KK2 is comparable to what life really was like during castle times, and that is just wrong. Kids learn through playing, so their toys need to reflect that to some extent.
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Postby kajo163 » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:27 pm

I do not think that there is any risk that anyone would think that the models in the KKII-line represent some reality in european medieval history. The comic in the instructions to the models rule out that possibility.

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Postby jwcbigdog » Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:49 pm

Joel, I must whole-heartedly disagree with you. I am a music teacher and like to incorporate a lot of history into my class. Whenever I bring up a topic that has been made into a movie, a toy, or the kids have read a fictional story on, they tell me all the details of what is in their heads, thinking that it is real. For the most part, kids don't go out and research what they see on TV or read in books, they assume that the adults that made it have done that for them, and what they are seeing is factual. If something is not factual, then it has to be pointed out to them. Whenever I show a fictional video about a composer in my class, I have to say often that it is not real, it did not actually happen, and that it is just portraying how life was. That is like my warning that I have to give to kids from kindergarten all the way up to seventh grade. While seventh graders only need to hear that once, younger kids are always asking, "Is this part real?"

Kids believe what they see and read until they are told that they shouldn't because they trust us adults to get it right.
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Postby Sir Kohran » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:24 am

The problem on this site is that people keep thinking that Lego's trying to make realistic castles again and failing in the form of KK2, but they're not. KK2 is meant to be Lego's attempt to emalute Lord of the Rings, not real castles. So just remember that it's a fantasy theme, not a realistic one.
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Postby doctorsparkles » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm

SKM from BZPower wrote:The problem on this site is that people keep thinking that Lego's trying to make realistic castles again and failing in the form of KK2, but they're not. KK2 is meant to be Lego's attempt to emalute Lord of the Rings, not real castles. So just remember that it's a fantasy theme, not a realistic one.

The point of this thread is not to say that LEGO succeeded in creating a realistic Castle LEGO line (they failed in that respect to at least some degree in almost every Castle line we've seen), but rather that elements from KK2 can be used in a realistic setting.
Nobody thinks that the product designers at LEGO sat down with a history book and thought to themselves "Hmm, at what point in history did knights begin shooting lightning from their swords?" or "When did warriors begin riding horses with wheels?" However, they probably did draw inspiration from history (or from sources inspired by history) to create some of the pieces (i.e. the helms), and it's not horribly far fetched to use the colored armor in a historical context.
Still not convinced? That's fine. That's what we've got Bricklink for.
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Postby ottoatm » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:45 pm

Yep - As AFOLs I suppose it's all about custimization anyway, and I think that the minifigs from KK2 can be mixed and matched for a somewhat cool knight in the end.

I was really impressed by this pic ~


http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=937663

There are a lot of things about KK2 I don't like (wheeled horses, open-backed "citadels", etc), but the pieces are sweet, and despite it all... I'm still happy there is castle at all. ;-)
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Postby LEGOFREAK » Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:06 pm

doctorsparkles wrote: ...The point of this thread is not to say that LEGO succeeded in creating a realistic Castle LEGO line ... and it's not horribly far fetched to use the colored armor in a historical context.


Thanks Doc. That's exactly what I was talking about.
at no point did I mean that KK2 was meant to be a realistic interpretation of history, but the question I wanted to ask was - does anyone know for sure whether or not knights painted there armor on a regular basis?

:D

(maybe I should have just asked it huh? :wink: )
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