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Eagle Heraldry

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Postby The Hordesman » Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:15 am

Victory to the Black Falcons! Yay! :D

So... The BF are pagan, since they do have a Warlock and attack Hospitallers? :wink:
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Postby Jojo » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:50 am

Hello!

The Hordesman wrote:So... The BF are pagan, since they do have a Warlock and attack Hospitallers? :wink:

No, they are not. They are the knights who fight in the sign of the evangelist John, as the eagle is the symbol of John. (I'm supposed to know it because my name is John, too (Johannes in German).)

Besides this it has no meaning of paganism when Christian knights fight against other Christian knights. On the 4th Crusade the crusaders even conquered and sacked the Christian Constantinople rather than Jerusalem. Which in fact is a sign for the crusades to be not all that holy and Christian. Actually they were just another crime of murder and barbarism.


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Postby The Hordesman » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:44 pm

Ive heard about crusaders attacking the ortodox church, since it was the enemy of the pope and was thought to be "heretics" by Rome at the time, but the Warlock leaves some question marks. :wink:
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Postby Formendacil » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:56 pm

The Hordesman wrote:Ive heard about crusaders attacking the ortodox church, since it was the enemy of the pope and was thought to be "heretics" by Rome at the time, but the Warlock leaves some question marks. :wink:


It was more a matter of certain rich (and wanting to get richer) Crusaders getting lazy and eyeing the ripe pluckings of Constantinople than any theological difference in this particular situation. Oh, there were theological differences, right enough, and those were certainly used as justification, but the main reason had to do with greed. And the marching orders to attack came from the "on-site" leaders of the Crusade, not from back in Europe, in Rome or anywhere else.
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Postby The Hordesman » Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:02 pm

Greed is something involved in every war, but good point. nNow, I dont think we should go more half off-topic anymore... *Ahem*. :oops:
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Postby Jacob C. » Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:11 pm

but the Warlock leaves some question marks.

Sometimes it can be hard for cultures to get rid of their old pagan ways.
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Postby architect » Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:45 pm

This sub topic has been split because it deals with medieval history and belongs in the real castles forum. Please stay on topic or start another thread. Thanks.

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Postby The Hordesman » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:15 pm

Well, I dont really find it related to this forum since the first post simple makes no sense alone... And its practically over now... Oh well. :D

...Closing time? :P
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Postby ottoatm » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:47 pm

They are the knights who fight in the sign of the evangelist John, as the eagle is the symbol of John. (I'm supposed to know it because my name is John, too (Johannes in German).)


Well, since the thread has been split off, I might as well take the opportunity to ask a little bit about the BF eagle heraldry... I always thought it was pretty unique and very cool, but I never guessed it was an exact replica of an existing heraldry (although I was sure that the eagle was used in many different forms during those times).

I wonder if anyone has more info or links about the Evangelist John? It'd be cool to see a little more about where the BF sign comes from.
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Postby Formendacil » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:05 pm

ottoatm wrote:Well, since the thread has been split off, I might as well take the opportunity to ask a little bit about the BF eagle heraldry... I always thought it was pretty unique and very cool, but I never guessed it was an exact replica of an existing heraldry (although I was sure that the eagle was used in many different forms during those times).

I wonder if anyone has more info or links about the Evangelist John? It'd be cool to see a little more about where the BF sign comes from.


Exact replica....

Umm, no.

I think that Jojo was just suggesting that there was an easy way to make a Christian connection to the Black Falcon heraldry if one so desired, in rebuttal to the Hordesman's comments.

It would be much the same as saying that the Royal Knights, King's Men, or KK1 have the emblem of the "Lion of Judah".
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Postby Jojo » Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:53 pm

Hello!


ottoatm wrote:Well, since the thread has been split off, I might as well take the opportunity to ask a little bit about the BF eagle heraldry... I always thought it was pretty unique and very cool, but I never guessed it was an exact replica of an existing heraldry (although I was sure that the eagle was used in many different forms during those times).

Well, the exact shape of an eagle or of any else animal or thing in heraldry doesn't matter too much. If the coat of arms of a family is "Eagle displayed" then all that mattered was that the eagle on the shield was displayed, not the exact shape of every single feather and such.
There are, however, differences that matter, they are characterised here: http://www.classic-castle.com/howto/art ... aldry.html

So for example the Eagle is the coat of arms of many families, many countries, many cities. It's the crest of Germany but as well the crest of my hometown.

Image The coat of arms of Kaiser Heinrich (13th century)

Image The coat of arms of the German Kaiser Wilhelm (19th/20th century)

Image The coat of arms of the German President (today)

Image The coat of arms of my hometown Dortmund.

All different eagles but all basically the same.


I wonder if anyone has more info or links about the Evangelist John? It'd be cool to see a little more about where the BF sign comes from.

Of course the BF sign wasn't designed after the coat of arms of John. But you could see it like that :-)


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Postby ottoatm » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:38 pm

Many thanks for the cool post Jojo - I was hoping for something pseudo - educational like that. Love the images too. 8)
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