Return of the Golden Age of Castle

JPinoy · Post by **JPinoy** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:48 am

Castle Theme rules all LEGOdom!

porschecm2 · Post by **porschecm2** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:57 am

Sir Kohran wrote:2004 - 2006: Castle 'returns' with KK2 and Vikings. Though fans are initially very negative and opinions are divided over the years, financially the lines are successful enough for Lego to keep Castle.

I would disagree with classing Vikings as among the last of the old bad lines. It was the first of the new good lines.

Cm2

Blueandwhite · Post by **Blueandwhite** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:03 am

I've never really been that fond of the term 'golden age' when describing LEGO (or pretty much anything else). Honestly, LEGO quality varries from year to year and from theme to theme. Personally I felt that most of what was produced from the mid 90s to early 2000s was pretty lackluster (the Ninja and Star Wars themes being notable exceptions for me). That doesn't mean much in the grand scheme.

Ultimately, there are only two kinds of sets: great sets and not-so-great ones. We've been fortunate in 2007 with alot of great castle sets, and 2008 looks to continue the tradition. I wouldn't really call it a golden age, but it is definitely a good time to be a castle fan (unless your broke).

Sir Kohran · Post by **Sir Kohran** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:33 am

porschecm2 wrote:
Sir Kohran wrote:2004 - 2006: Castle 'returns' with KK2 and Vikings. Though fans are initially very negative and opinions are divided over the years, financially the lines are successful enough for Lego to keep Castle.
I would disagree with classing Vikings as among the last of the old bad lines. It was the first of the new good lines.

Cm2

I wouldn't say that but this is neither the place or the time for such a debate.

EDIT: Actually I think the whole KK2/Viking discussion may have some relevance to Castle 2007.

KK2 and Vikings are the complete opposite - one is a gritty, realistic theme with open possiblities and the other is a larger than life fantasy with defined story and characters. One appealed more to AFOLs; one more to kids. I think we've had enough information over the years to reason why.

When KK2 was released, AFOLs despised it (see your own 'bad old lines' comment) but most kids liked it. The hero characters and the evil enemy faction had been done in KK1 but here was where it really became the central point of the line. And kids bought it and it appealed to them. It sold well enough to be continued for the following two years. KK2 was, for all its flaws and bad reputation, essentially a success. After the failures of the 90s it proved that Castle could somehow sell.

In 2005 Lego released the Viking line. Okay, we didn't quite find out why but I think it's fair to say that Lego listened to 'our' complaints on KK2 and tried releasing something based more on our input. The Viking line was the result - a history-like line with subdued colours, realistic figs and without a defined story. And AFOLs liked most of what Lego gave them. The problem with the line was basically that kids themselves weren't interested. There was no real enemy; no real story. This was good for adults - but not kids. They *want* stories and characters. They don't want to constantly have to use their imagination. They like to have an idea of what's going on and then get to playing it instantly. The Vikings appealed to AFOLs but not to the majority. Because of their lackluster sales they were discontinued the year after with just two smaller sets being released. Just like the Dark Forest a decade earlier, for all the popularity and praise they enjoyed, the Vikings simply didn't sell. That's what the Viking line is - a brilliant failure.

So by now Lego knew what they needed - a story and conflict. Technically both of these were in KK2. But they chose not to continue KK2; either because it stopped selling or they simply wanted something different (could have been either or both). They had the basics from the various lines they'd tried over the years; they refined them. So they created a new Castle line. It kept KK2's good knights/evil enemy theme whilst getting rid of the bright colours and over the top pieces that AFOLs hated. They kept the Vikings' realistic feel and put it in a line it would work in; a line that kids would be interested in. They brought back pieces and ideas from the 'golden age' of the eighties. With all of these combined we get Castle 07 - a line that appeals to everyone.

This is why I put KK2 and Vikings together as an era (04-06). Neither was completely successful but they both led to Castle 07.

Okay that was far too long but hopefully you get the point.

- Matt

timber_wolf899 · Post by **timber_wolf899** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:06 am

king's castle siege is by far the best castle in ten years.

that being said, it is not on par with BFF for two reasons.

1. The gate that rises into nowhere, it looks awful when open/lifted.

2. The airy keep, as much as i try to ignore that, it bugs the heck out of me!

MarioDAlessio · Post by **MarioDAlessio** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:10 am

Thanks for the posts this is an interesting read, without disagreeing with what has been previously said I would add:

I consider that the castle/viking/ninja lines over the last 30 years are good examples of linear product growth in that the themes have been grown through the continual addition of relative few unique parts at any one time and the constant reuse of existing components.

I think that earlier discussion on the development of the 2007 castle line touched on bringing well received traditional castle parts forward like;

http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/3848
http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/3844
http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/4444
http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/x126

ect ect

In addition the castle theme has benefited from the inter compatibility of elements between LEGO themes i.e.

http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/43899
http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemIn. ... 1pb00&in=S

The unique part development of each new castle theme is quite small and the overwhelming majority of good elements have been carried forward so that the older themes remain compatible with the newer and remain comparible.

Mario

Blue Monarch · Post by **Blue Monarch** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:11 pm

RebelRock wrote:I especially love the wave of cool colors in these. Dark green, dark blue, dark red are some of my favorite Lego colors.

Ditto! My favorite color is the new dark blue. The dark red is awesome too, as the original red was just too bright for many of my applications. And the new dark green is perfect for the new line of forestmen that Lego will make (right Lego?).

Blue Monarch · Post by **Blue Monarch** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:17 pm

timber_wolf899 wrote:king's castle siege is by far the best castle in ten years.

that being said, it is not on par with BFF for two reasons.

1. The gate that rises into nowhere, it looks awful when open/lifted.

2. The airy keep, as much as i try to ignore that, it bugs the heck out of me!

Hey, I hear you.

I've built but never owned BFF. Those points are valid, but two Castle Sieges are better than two BFFs. With those two new sets, you can build one awesome castle that is both huge and substantial. The BFF is limited by its rather small raised baseplate.

Because of your two aforementioned reasons, I had to buy a second castle to rectify that problem (and then I had enough bricks to build a stable and blacksmith shop).

Blueandwhite · Post by **Blueandwhite** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:48 pm

Blue Monarch wrote: Hey, I hear you.

I've built but never owned BFF. Those points are valid, but two Castle Sieges are better than two BFFs. With those two new sets, you can build one awesome castle that is both huge and substantial. The BFF is limited by its rather small raised baseplate.

The BFF doesn't have any raised baseplates. In fact, there are no baseplates with the set whatsoever. The castle is built on several green plates. Also, the BFF had a sticker price that was less than 1/2 that of the Castle Siege. Given the choice, I would much rather have 5 BFF over 2 Castle Seiges.

Horak the Great · Post by **Horak the Great** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:53 am

I have to admit, the set designs are pretty nice. Kudos to the designers. I really like the new Fantasy theme with its orcs, trolls, ogres, skeletons, zombies, etc. (Lego Warhammer, anyone?) What impresses me the most are the 'undead' vehicles more so than the castles. The Battle Wheel, among several others is one of the best Lego castle set designs I have seen in at least 10 years, Vikings theme excluded.

What concerns me is the declining quality of the plastic pieces themselves and numerous reports of people missing pieces in their sets, although the latter hasn't happened to me (yet). This makes me reluctant to say this is indeed a "Golden Age."

Brickzone · Post by **Brickzone** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:19 pm

Horak, while it is disappointing to see QC drop in Lego with the amount of missing/incorrect pieces, I've had nothing but exemplary service from Lego customer service in sending out replacement parts. Also, I do consider it a positive thing that Lego is far far cheaper than days of old! We would never have seen the likes of Café Corner in days gone by.

I do consider this a renaissance of Lego. Across the board I think it is great, not just in Castle. I love the new City stuff and bigger vehicles. I think Exoforce is a really cool theme and something different. Even Lego Racers I've realised is actually quite clever; essentially reconfigurable equivalents of matchbox cars; no need for the latter at all now really! Now, if they could just progress from Mars Mission to something a bit more classic. However, there's no doubt that even if you aren't into Star Wars, those sets are for the most part very well done, and great Space sets.

It would not be possible for me to get enough of this Fantasy theme Castle Lego. It's just about the best take they could have done on the theme to keep me happy at least; that goes for now as an AFOL or back when I was a kid! Never could I have imagined we would have actual Lego dwarves, trolls and orcs. How cool is it that we do?! (well, I will, hopefully on Monday).

Blue Monarch · Post by **Blue Monarch** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:44 pm

Blueandwhite wrote:
Blue Monarch wrote: Hey, I hear you.

I've built but never owned BFF. Those points are valid, but two Castle Sieges are better than two BFFs. With those two new sets, you can build one awesome castle that is both huge and substantial. The BFF is limited by its rather small raised baseplate.
The BFF doesn't have any raised baseplates. In fact, there are no baseplates with the set whatsoever. The castle is built on several green plates. Also, the BFF had a sticker price that was less than 1/2 that of the Castle Siege. Given the choice, I would much rather have 5 BFF over 2 Castle Seiges.

My bad... I actually do have 2 original BFFs and love them. I was thinking of 6086 Black Knight's Castle.

I still like the Castle Siege better, minus nostalgic feelings. If I had to choose between the two it would be the BFF since it was my first ever Lego castle.

Brickzone · Post by **Brickzone** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:44 pm

Blueandwhite wrote:Also, the BFF had a sticker price that was less than 1/2 that of the Castle Siege. Given the choice, I would much rather have 5 BFF over 2 Castle Seiges.

But BFF was released ages prior to King's Castle Siege, so it would have a far lower price. Taking inflation into account, and relative spending power and disposable income, newer Lego sets are crazy cheap. King's Castle Siege isn't even a day and a half's pay at minimum wage here in Ireland (€8.65/h).

jens · Post by **jens** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:26 pm

I have to agree with you Tony,

I own the new sets, too. I got some at christmas sale and it feels like in former times to build the sets. I like the new "silver" from the helmets and armor.

The best of all: Now I own really Lego Orcs! I dreamed over 20 years for orcs! Thank you Lego!

regards,
jens

Blueandwhite · Post by **Blueandwhite** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:27 pm

Brickzone wrote:But BFF was released ages prior to King's Castle Siege, so it would have a far lower price. Taking inflation into account, and relative spending power and disposable income, newer Lego sets are crazy cheap. King's Castle Siege isn't even a day and a half's pay at minimum wage here in Ireland (€8.65/h).

Ah, but BFF is imune to inflation

. When it was re-released in 2002, fifteen years after its original release in 1987 it still had a sticker price of $35 U.S.! King's Castle Siege is a great set, but BFF was insane value for its time. Heck, almost all of my grey corner wall pieces came thanks to a mass purchase of BFF Legends.