The fighting Uruk-hia

[Formendacil]

Why would the canonist weep?

Movie: Elrond sends some Elves to Aragorn's aid, and they show up at Helm's Deep.

Book: Elrond sends his sons along with some rangers to Aragorn's aid, and they show up a couple days after the battle.

The main difference_ as I see it_ is that due to time constraints the Northern Kingdom is left out of the Movie, so all we see is Elves. Of course they also don't bring him the symbol of his Kingship (Book: The Banner Arwen sewed;Movie: The sword Arwen made Daddy reforge), but that's only because he cut out the whole Arwen at Helm's Deep thing...which would have made me weep.

First off, a note to the reader: this does not bear on the topic, it is an offtopic explanation of my comment:

Okay, the canonist weeps for several reasons. First of all, the elves of Lorien are not under the command of Elrond. He is, by rights, the elven overlord of middle-earth, but since he never assumed Gil-galad's crown, he has no actual authority, and he never exercised it anyway.

Furthermore, Haldir and company ought to be guarding Lorien. Its under attack from Dol Guldur, for Morgoth's sake! In addition, the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age is just that: the LAST Alliance of Elves and Men. Even the movie's prologue acknowledges that.

Also, Haldir is a marchwarden, not a general. He shouldn't be commanding this.

In addition, just as a note, Elladan and Elrohir were not sent by Elrond. They came of their own will. That they brought word from their father is just a courtesy. These two would have come anyway. They'd been ork-hunting with the Arnorian rangers for centuries. If you think they were going to sit in Rivendell and pick off the few leftovers that came over the mountains when there were whole armies to fight in Gondor....

Besides, they looked at Aragorn as a brother (and a future brother-in-law, what's more), so they had their own reasons for coming.

As for the Aragorn/sword/movieElrond thing...

I won't go there. I've said enough.

On personal note I thought it was cool (because) it looked like something out of the Silmarillion.

Matter of opinion, those curved elven swords do NOT look right to me...

But I have to agree that they looked cool, and there is no denying that it is a great moment in the movie. I just don't like it from a Tolkien fan's perspective, whatever Mr. Movie-Me thinks.

Anyways, this nitpicking will hopefully not affect your building, Jon_p. Your stuff is great, and the fact that its movie-based, while not something I'm likely to do, is okay. They are, after all, epically great movies.

[jon_p]

Jail: I think your uruk looks great. I agree that the shadow kinght helm looks great.. if only I had had some of these when I was making mine. The samurai armor works well too, again I don't have alot of these so I chose to use the breastplate.

Since I'm well aware by now that you're doing movie-version, I won't say anthing about the accuracy, since you're well aware of it by now, I imagine. I'll just say that while their arrival made the canonist in my weep buckets, the movie-goer was wowed by them.

Yes, I am aware of your views on my work now.
As for the elves arrival, it was just a PJ interpretation but it sure did make it a Megablocks of a battle scene, even though it was not quite acurate to Tolkiens work.

Anyways, this nitpicking will hopefully not affect your building, Jon_p. Your stuff is great, and the fact that its movie-based, while not something I'm likely to do, is okay.

Don't worry, I like to hear other peoples view on the films and books. If anything, this is helping me build as I get to see what other people think of what I do. And thanks for the nice words!

Jon.

[Sir Garth]

Maybe you should buy some shadow knights helmets from briklink or something, they look really much the same as the helmets from the movies. Some painted KK2 helmets would be cool for orcs too... I must admit those grilled helmets aren't really uruk-like, but they do look nice of course.
I think you should try to make some more elves and uruk hai. Around 15 elves and thirty uruk hai are enough I think...

I don't think the people of Rohan are really hard to make, you can use most types of helmets on them (or even no helmets for some guys). Spears and halbers are the weapons I would use for the militia. The KK1 soldier torso's are nice for the royal guards. I think that when its finished this will become the best helms deep I've seen, just give us some battle scenes

[jon_p]

Maybe you should buy some shadow knights helmets from briklink or something, they look really much the same as the helmets from the movies.

If I can get the chance to order a large quantity of these helmets I will. But for now I guess I'll keep with the grill faces.

I think you should try to make some more elves and uruk hai. Around 15 elves and thirty uruk hai are enough I think...

I am working on this!

I don't think the people of Rohan are really hard to make, you can use most types of helmets on them (or even no helmets for some guys). Spears and halbers are the weapons I would use for the militia. The KK1 soldier torso's are nice for the royal guards.

Again, I am working on this.. expect an update with the rohan soldiers in a few days. I have about 25 soldiers but I am just getting a few more helms and spears.

I think that when its finished this will become the best helms deep I've seen, just give us some battle scenes

Thanks alot! I am glad you like it. And mark my word, once I have finished I will be taking lots of in-battle pics. I want to get a few of some orcs on the ladders I made.

Jon.

P.S. This is my 100th post! Yeah!

[Formendacil]

Actually, while I would prefer Shadow Knight helms for my interpretation of the orks, I think that the grilled helmets do an excellent job of translating the movie-Uruks to Lego. I think they're closer to the movie than the Shadow Knight helms.

[TwoTonic Knight]

Actually, while I would prefer Shadow Knight helms for my interpretation of the orks, I think that the grilled helmets do an excellent job of translating the movie-Uruks to Lego. I think they're closer to the movie than the Shadow Knight helms.

Boy, for such a nit-picker of the movies, I gotta disagree with that assessment.

The orcs have been given an extremely wide variety of helmets in the movie, but if you don't blink, you might see a very few grilled helmets (at least one is there, but like I said, don't blink or you'll miss it). It's one of those things that you can mix into a unit of orcs, but making them all grilled helms just obscures what they are supposed to be. You'll see a lot of open faced helmets that look much closer to the shadow knight helm.

[jon_p]

Yes, what you are saying is right. But in some of the close up scenes, where you see right up into the faces of the orcs, most of them have closed helmets. Like the ones which only have holes for eyes and the mouth.. but some are are fully visible and you can all the face. There is so much variation that I think both helms are acceptable. I just decided to chose the grill face as I think it represents the variation best. And of course it was the one I has most of too!

Jon.

[TwoTonic Knight]

Yes, what you are saying is right. But in some of the close up scenes, where you see right up into the faces of the orcs, most of them have closed helmets. Like the ones which only have holes for eyes and the mouth.. but some are are fully visible and you can all the face. There is so much variation that I think both helms are acceptable. I just decided to chose the grill face as I think it represents the variation best. And of course it was the one I has most of too!

Some have truly closed helmets, some have helmets with non-movable visors that exposes the face below the nose (sallet-styled without bevors) - together I'd guess at about half, but the balance changes from scene to scene - and the rest have more open faced helmets or don't have one at all. Like I said - there's an extremely broad variety. I'd say the grilled helmet is far too distinctive and unlike 99% that appeared to be singled out as the best example, but these things are a matter of taste and perception. If you like 'em, go for 'em even if you have more choices available to you.

[Formendacil]

Actually, while I would prefer Shadow Knight helms for my interpretation of the orks, I think that the grilled helmets do an excellent job of translating the movie-Uruks to Lego. I think they're closer to the movie than the Shadow Knight helms.

Boy, for such a nit-picker of the movies, I gotta disagree with that assessment.

The orcs have been given an extremely wide variety of helmets in the movie, but if you don't blink, you might see a very few grilled helmets (at least one is there, but like I said, don't blink or you'll miss it). It's one of those things that you can mix into a unit of orcs, but making them all grilled helms just obscures what they are supposed to be. You'll see a lot of open faced helmets that look much closer to the shadow knight helm.

Its a matter of opinion, this one is mine. I personally think that the grilled helm does a reasonable job of similating ONE of the helmets seen in the movies. While it may not match the other ones, I think that it does a better job of recapturing (for my eyes, at least), the feel of the one it DOES replicate than anything else would.

This, of course, is just my opinion. Unlike canonical matters, I have little real preference. I'm just stating what I thought. I would love to see the Shadow Knight helmets, but if I were to use them in a Helm's Deep MOC, it would be because I thought they were good for orks in general, whereas if I was going for movie-verse look, I would quite possibly use the grilled helm, because in MY opinion, it looks more like it.

[The Tennis Ball Kid]

Jon_p: Why don't you trying giving them a mixture of helmets? The main reason I didn't like 'em with the grilled ones is because they look to uniform.


Formendacil: All right, all right, I concede the point. The canonist/purist does have some reason to be upset. My own inner purist however, feels EAHD is closer to the spirit of the work than the Ent's decision to not go to war, and thus I have always been more forgiving of it...

for Morgoth's sake!

For Satan's sake?

the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age is just that: the LAST Alliance of Elves and Men.

I disagree, while it may be "The Last Alliance Of Men And Elves"*, it is not the last alliance of elves and men. (for more on this fascinating topic please read The Hobbit, especially the part about The Battle of Five Armies)



* A registered trade mark of Rivendell authentic replicas from The Second Age Inc.

Formendacil keeps saying:

orks

Is this a Canadian thing? In the US it's orcs.

[jamitjames]

I realy like that helmet on a ork Jail!

[Formendacil]

Formendacil: All right, all right, I concede the point. The canonist/purist does have some reason to be upset. My own inner purist however, feels EAHD is closer to the spirit of the work than the Ent's decision to not go to war, and thus I have always been more forgiving of it...

As long as you get the idea. The canonist in me was more than a little ticked off by that too.

for Morgoth's sake!

For Satan's sake?

Well, I guess you could say that. I was just searching around for some Tolkien being to replace the deity in that phrase. For the Valar's sake might have been better. I wasn't going to take the Lord's name in vain, so Iluvatar's out of the question too.

I disagree, while it may be "The Last Alliance Of Men And Elves"*, it is not the last alliance of elves and men. (for more on this fascinating topic please read The Hobbit, especially the part about The Battle of Five Armies)

I concede that you have a point. But it isn't mentioned in the movie, and they made a point of saying that it was the LAST alliance. So when they go and break that, it really irks me.

Formendacil keeps saying:

orks

Is this a Canadian thing? In the US it's orcs.

No, the books have "orcs" here too. In his later years though, Tolkien took to using "orks", for phonetic reasons. (It's pronounced orkish, not orsish, and since it isn't an elven word, it isn't bound by elven pronunciation rules.)
Christopher Tolkien changed it back to "orcs" in the Silmarillion when editing, to keep it in line with the Lord of the Rings.

Its just a little quirk I've picked up. Pay it no heed.

And my apologies to all for distracting this thread a little.

[TwoTonic Knight]

Its a matter of opinion, this one is mine.
I personally think that the grilled helm does a reasonable job of similating ONE of the helmets seen in the movies. While it may not match the other ones, I think that it does a better job of recapturing (for my eyes, at least), the feel of the one it DOES replicate than anything else would.

Allow me to politely disagree. The only one that I can recall that was grilled was much more like a roman gladiator's "thracian" helmet with bars than a burgonet. The general shape and the broad brim don't match. Other than having a grill, they were completely dissimiliar, and the vast majority of orcy helmets in the movie didn't look like it at all. It's something I might give to the odd orc-fig, but having them all with it? I'd only know they were supposed to be orcs if you told me (which is what I was trying to point out in the first place).

But as I said, if that's the way you see it, go for it and don't mind my nit-picking.

This, of course, is just my opinion. Unlike canonical matters, I have little real preference. I'm just stating what I thought. I would love to see the Shadow Knight helmets, but if I were to use them in a Helm's Deep MOC, it would be because I thought they were good for orks in general, whereas if I was going for movie-verse look, I would quite possibly use the grilled helm, because in MY opinion, it looks more like it.

I understood it was your opinion (just as I understand that your use of "canonical" is your opinion). I just don't agree with it, and I was showing why I don't agree with it.

It's okay for us to disagree, though.

[Formendacil]

Allow me to politely disagree. The only one that I can recall that was grilled was much more like a roman gladiator's "thracian" helmet with bars than a burgonet. The general shape and the broad brim don't match. Other than having a grill, they were completely dissimiliar, and the vast majority of orcy helmets in the movie didn't look like it at all. It's something I might give to the odd orc-fig, but having them all with it? I'd only know they were supposed to be orcs if you told me (which is what I was trying to point out in the first place).

But as I said, if that's the way you see it, go for it and don't mind my nit-picking.

I guess that's the different perceptions of an armour and weapons expert as opposed to a book readers' perspective. I can see why you would think that. And, yeah, I probably won't mind your nit-picking. It's only fair with all the nit-picking I do.

It's okay for us to disagree, though.

Agreed.

[Emperor James]

The only one that I can recall that was grilled was much more like a roman gladiator's "thracian" helmet with bars than a burgonet. The general shape and the broad brim don't match. Other than having a grill, they were completely dissimiliar, and the vast majority of orcy helmets in the movie didn't look like it at all. It's something I might give to the odd orc-fig, but having them all with it? I'd only know they were supposed to be orcs if you told me (which is what I was trying to point out in the first place).

But, I beleive the grilled helmet to be a visored bascinet. I'm not sure about the historical accuracy of the grill visor, but I think there must be something to it, because a bascinet with grill visor is one of the more common SCA helmets.