I was only around for the bitter end. But I say it was golden because there were:
no story lines
lots of minifigs
sets were realistic (the old firestation was an actual building, the new one is half of that)
1978-1992: Golden Years?
I must say, for me, castle was allive for a long time after 1996 too, the real end for the classic age really came when, in a comic in the cataloge a few years ago, you could actually see the minifigs take up the bricks and rebuild their siege weapon!!! That's juniorization for you! '
'
Joel.
'Joel.
I'm back, and so is Castle!
When I think of the Golden Ages, this is what I picture:
Whatever happened to the idea books?
I think of good set design, plates, bricks, imagination, and a bit of realism. The boxes were interesting with lots of ideas and pictures of alternate models (rather than "knock the bad guy off with this rock!"), and the bigger sets had the display flaps with special pieces included on display (and you could re-use the boxes for storage too!). Something like this (courtesy of Jojo's brickshelf account):
No single-use pieces (aka juniorization) like some of those new walls in KK2. No stories or characters that already come with names. And certainly none of those hard cardboard boxes that become useless once you break open the flaps!
It's hard to say specifically which years, but maybe early 80s to early 90s. It's no coincidence that these years ended once video games and gaming systems became huge money makers. Let's face it - TLG's target audience (kids) changed. TLG could no longer afford to make nice boxes, spend time on good set designs, etc. Nowadays it's whatevers hot, that's what we gotta release - NOW. Rather than setting trends, they have to follow them now. It's really unfortunate, but that's probably how the cookie crumbles...
My 2 cents,
-Bryan
Whatever happened to the idea books?
I think of good set design, plates, bricks, imagination, and a bit of realism. The boxes were interesting with lots of ideas and pictures of alternate models (rather than "knock the bad guy off with this rock!"), and the bigger sets had the display flaps with special pieces included on display (and you could re-use the boxes for storage too!). Something like this (courtesy of Jojo's brickshelf account):
No single-use pieces (aka juniorization) like some of those new walls in KK2. No stories or characters that already come with names. And certainly none of those hard cardboard boxes that become useless once you break open the flaps!
It's hard to say specifically which years, but maybe early 80s to early 90s. It's no coincidence that these years ended once video games and gaming systems became huge money makers. Let's face it - TLG's target audience (kids) changed. TLG could no longer afford to make nice boxes, spend time on good set designs, etc. Nowadays it's whatevers hot, that's what we gotta release - NOW. Rather than setting trends, they have to follow them now. It's really unfortunate, but that's probably how the cookie crumbles...
My 2 cents,
-Bryan
Aside from the many other points made here, I think that the golden ages were so because the sets were a little generic. The designs were great, but didn't really lean towards being the "bad" or "good" army. You could have made your forestmen be the "bad guys" pillaging unsuspecting villagers and harassing knights, or they could have been the "good guys" being oppressed by the big bad castle knights. There were no over done story lines, and the sets were detailed and you filled in the story.
Also, the figs were a little generic. It always drove me nuts how many Captain Redbeards I had in my Pirate sets, but with castle, I usually didn't have that problem. Aside from kings, it never bothered me to have a bunch of guys with the exact same armor and weapons, because they became an army. Now, you can have an army of figs who look the same, but you know you should technically only have one of them, like Captain Redbeard.
I won't argue the exact dates when the decline started, that is personal opinion, but I would like TLC to go back to letting us put our imagination to work and not doing the thinking for us.
Also, the figs were a little generic. It always drove me nuts how many Captain Redbeards I had in my Pirate sets, but with castle, I usually didn't have that problem. Aside from kings, it never bothered me to have a bunch of guys with the exact same armor and weapons, because they became an army. Now, you can have an army of figs who look the same, but you know you should technically only have one of them, like Captain Redbeard.
I won't argue the exact dates when the decline started, that is personal opinion, but I would like TLC to go back to letting us put our imagination to work and not doing the thinking for us.
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Bruce N H
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Umgarla
- Laborer
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Uuuha yeah, those old idea books sure bring back memories... I remember winternights spent just looking at those great scenes they did in those "books"... That's Golden Age indeed! Can't really explain... it's just marvelous...Gumby wrote:
But for me the Golden Age was from 84-90. No later than 90 especially because of the Kings Mountain Fortress which marked the decline. Some would argue that the Golden Age was until 92 because of the 6086. I disagree, tlc was just "lucky" with that set, they made some sorta revival of the old lego spirit. That probably sounded weird, right?
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davee123
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Personally, I think it's not really a matter of exact dates. The problem is that ever since 1955, Lego has been heading in the direction of making *specific* toys rather than *building* toys. But somewhere in the 80's, it reached that perfect balance point between too generic and too specific.
The problem with, say, KK2, Alpha Team, Adventurers, Harry Potter, etc, is that it's geared for a specific fad market. There's individual characters rather than generic ones. It's more difficult to make Santis (say) the bad guy because he's already typecast as the dumb, strong, good guy. The pieces are too specific too-- pieces are very limited use, and it's obvious at a first glance what the point of a particular piece is. You may be ABLE to find creative uses for it, but it's harder to do. Lego is using THEIR imagination, rather than relying on kids to use their own.
Also, Lego decided around 1997 or 1999 that their goal was to become not just a niche toy, but the best known brand in households with children. To do that, they had to increase the appeal of their products. They had to reach out to new markets, which meant producing a lot of products that their former market didn't care about. Juniorization, Bionicle, Licensing, Mindstorms, ZNAP, Galidor, Computer Games, Lego Retail stores, more Legoland parks, etc, were all steps towards that. And the "core" market has suffered because of it. But there have admittedly been successes as well as losses.
But it didn't start in 1997. Back before the 70's, there weren't all these instruction manuals with neat little pictures showing that "this set makes this model". The vast majority of Lego sets just sort of gave you ideas by showing you various things you could make. I've heard from several sources that the "golden age" of Lego ended with the advent of the minifig in the late 70's, because all of a sudden, Lego was TELLING you what to make.
Personally, I think that happy medium was in the 80's. But the beginning of the end was Blacktron in 1987. For the first time, there was this faction who was obviously aligned with evil. Contrasted soon after by the obvious good guys, Space Police. Black Knights with their black castle similarly invaded the morally neutral castle world in 1988. These themes weren't bad sets by any means-- in fact, Blacktron I has always been one of my favorite themes. But they paved the way for things like Dragon Masters and Ice Planet.
After that, themes quickly started going into a 3-year rotation. Not sets, but complete subthemes. And gradually, the subthemes became entities of themselves, unrelated to the rest of the larger theme. Where you once had Forestmen, Crusaders, and Black Falcons all in the same universe, things like Life On Mars, Adventurers, and eventually Alpha Team started showing up. Things that had very little if anything to do with other themes or subthemes. The idea of a "System" has applied less and less.
Today's sets are marketed at specific demographics of *different* kids, rather than subsets of "kids who like building toys". Bionicle and Galidor? They weren't marketed to kids who like building toys. Scala? Clikits? Nope. Very different markets. There's less continuity nowadays. Less system. The very thing that GKC set out to change in 1955 that made a little failed building toy suddenly start to soar has been lost thanks to a desire to become another Disney, Mattel, or Hasbro.
I can only hope that they're finding their way back. Things like the designer sets are a step in the right direction. And I wish they went back to the interrelated generic themes and subthemes as seen in the 80's, but I think that's probably unlikely. In the meantime, I'm happy to see that while the building toy isn't as much their main focus as it once was, it hasn't been forgotten. It no longer reaches across all of Lego's products as it once did, but it finds its way into sets like the Building Bonanza, Wright Flyer, Legends, and even some of the train and world city sets.
Man, I had no idea this post would turn into such a soapbox.
DaveE
The problem with, say, KK2, Alpha Team, Adventurers, Harry Potter, etc, is that it's geared for a specific fad market. There's individual characters rather than generic ones. It's more difficult to make Santis (say) the bad guy because he's already typecast as the dumb, strong, good guy. The pieces are too specific too-- pieces are very limited use, and it's obvious at a first glance what the point of a particular piece is. You may be ABLE to find creative uses for it, but it's harder to do. Lego is using THEIR imagination, rather than relying on kids to use their own.
Also, Lego decided around 1997 or 1999 that their goal was to become not just a niche toy, but the best known brand in households with children. To do that, they had to increase the appeal of their products. They had to reach out to new markets, which meant producing a lot of products that their former market didn't care about. Juniorization, Bionicle, Licensing, Mindstorms, ZNAP, Galidor, Computer Games, Lego Retail stores, more Legoland parks, etc, were all steps towards that. And the "core" market has suffered because of it. But there have admittedly been successes as well as losses.
But it didn't start in 1997. Back before the 70's, there weren't all these instruction manuals with neat little pictures showing that "this set makes this model". The vast majority of Lego sets just sort of gave you ideas by showing you various things you could make. I've heard from several sources that the "golden age" of Lego ended with the advent of the minifig in the late 70's, because all of a sudden, Lego was TELLING you what to make.
Personally, I think that happy medium was in the 80's. But the beginning of the end was Blacktron in 1987. For the first time, there was this faction who was obviously aligned with evil. Contrasted soon after by the obvious good guys, Space Police. Black Knights with their black castle similarly invaded the morally neutral castle world in 1988. These themes weren't bad sets by any means-- in fact, Blacktron I has always been one of my favorite themes. But they paved the way for things like Dragon Masters and Ice Planet.
After that, themes quickly started going into a 3-year rotation. Not sets, but complete subthemes. And gradually, the subthemes became entities of themselves, unrelated to the rest of the larger theme. Where you once had Forestmen, Crusaders, and Black Falcons all in the same universe, things like Life On Mars, Adventurers, and eventually Alpha Team started showing up. Things that had very little if anything to do with other themes or subthemes. The idea of a "System" has applied less and less.
Today's sets are marketed at specific demographics of *different* kids, rather than subsets of "kids who like building toys". Bionicle and Galidor? They weren't marketed to kids who like building toys. Scala? Clikits? Nope. Very different markets. There's less continuity nowadays. Less system. The very thing that GKC set out to change in 1955 that made a little failed building toy suddenly start to soar has been lost thanks to a desire to become another Disney, Mattel, or Hasbro.
I can only hope that they're finding their way back. Things like the designer sets are a step in the right direction. And I wish they went back to the interrelated generic themes and subthemes as seen in the 80's, but I think that's probably unlikely. In the meantime, I'm happy to see that while the building toy isn't as much their main focus as it once was, it hasn't been forgotten. It no longer reaches across all of Lego's products as it once did, but it finds its way into sets like the Building Bonanza, Wright Flyer, Legends, and even some of the train and world city sets.
Man, I had no idea this post would turn into such a soapbox.
DaveE
Wow Daveee.... I think that might possibly be the best post I have ever read while attending this forum. It was loaded with insight, information, and was just generally well done.
I agree with pretty much all of what you said. I too believe that Lego should try to remain generic and let the "Maniac" decide who is good, bad, and how the story should unfold. As jwcbigdog stated, I too believe that the mini-fig heads and mini-figs in general have also played a factor in the decline as well as sets themselves. What happened to the standard smiley face? They've become a real rarity in any new sets these days.
I remember when I used to be excited over new heads, but that was when the majority were still smiley's and a new head was something unique. Somewhere along the way, the standard smiley face became a minority, and eventually non-existent. Now I'd be excited to buy a set and just get the smiley heads again. (sorry for the repeated use of the word "smiley" in this post)
I agree with pretty much all of what you said. I too believe that Lego should try to remain generic and let the "Maniac" decide who is good, bad, and how the story should unfold. As jwcbigdog stated, I too believe that the mini-fig heads and mini-figs in general have also played a factor in the decline as well as sets themselves. What happened to the standard smiley face? They've become a real rarity in any new sets these days.
I remember when I used to be excited over new heads, but that was when the majority were still smiley's and a new head was something unique. Somewhere along the way, the standard smiley face became a minority, and eventually non-existent. Now I'd be excited to buy a set and just get the smiley heads again. (sorry for the repeated use of the word "smiley" in this post)
"A chair like this is like a girlfriend! Why would you trade in an old one that's comfortable for a new one that could be a pain in the butt?" -Archie Bunker-
I'll sum it up in a few words
LEGOLAND is GOOD (1984-1990)
System is BAD (1992-1999)
what we have now is just ridiculous (2000-....)
From simple usefull bricks, to more bigger and bigger ones until you get BULKS and Bionicles (KKI and KKII). From basic rainbow colors to every shade possible. From the most authentic sets to the most fairy-tales sets.
From kids in the 80's who wanted to build more then to play then to the 2000's kids who look at LEGO as a palyability rather then building.
Nonetheless I have to disclude from those remarks all of the S@H exclusive such as: Sculptures (the ISD of course), all the LEGENDS/Classics sets, some of the train line, SW line and of course the Orient line and the Mindstorms sets. All this is prove that LEGO can still do well if they want too....
LEGOLAND is GOOD (1984-1990)
System is BAD (1992-1999)
what we have now is just ridiculous (2000-....)
From simple usefull bricks, to more bigger and bigger ones until you get BULKS and Bionicles (KKI and KKII). From basic rainbow colors to every shade possible. From the most authentic sets to the most fairy-tales sets.
From kids in the 80's who wanted to build more then to play then to the 2000's kids who look at LEGO as a palyability rather then building.
Nonetheless I have to disclude from those remarks all of the S@H exclusive such as: Sculptures (the ISD of course), all the LEGENDS/Classics sets, some of the train line, SW line and of course the Orient line and the Mindstorms sets. All this is prove that LEGO can still do well if they want too....
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